Joined: 02 Jun 2007 Posts: 5 Location: Northern Ireland
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Soloing all over the neck
Hey, first post, and I've just recently got into listening to Govan and other players like him (but I haven't yet learned how to play like that kind of stuff).
Ok, so I recently realised that yes, I am a scale "box" player, with a few notes from maybe one or two different positions of the scale. Here, http://duggan.dmusic.com , that's my dmusic page
As you can hear, I pretty much just run up and down a single position.
My questions here today are:
1. How can I learn to solo over the whole neck?
2. Do you guys memorize scales in all postions? If so, isn't it near impossible to memorize exactly the postions of all those scales? That means scales, and there modes btw.
I'll probably have some more noob questions later is I get a few replies.
Well one way is to understand the boxes, like the CAGED patterns but know what degrees of a scale you're playing.. so know where the root notes are for those five patterns.. (great for opening up the neck and playing over changes)
You can get the CAGED patterns from the five pentatonic patterns... for major modes you simply add 2 more notes (2nd and 6th for minor modes, 4th and 7th for major). Some pentatonics map nicely with arpeggios and arpeggios are great for highlighting the really strong sounding notes in a scale. (good for changes)
Also learn the 2 octave scales saying the degree of the scale as you play the note, then play the 3 octave scales around the same position so you pass through that box and two scales overlap
Also understanding the spellings of scales and chords helps: swapping between dorian and mixolydian modes is simply a case of changing the minor third to a major third... then think where the thirds are in the pattern you know. (great for really getting one box)
Or crashing two arpeggios together, that helps some people.
I think that's a stepping stone to just knowing the notes on the fretboard but some people miss it out and go straight to learning intervals on the fretboard and note names.
But I think it's all of these things that are needed. Certainly for improv (and perhaps because I'm a bit flaky) I use different techniques .. some notes I just know, like Bb and some intervals I remember well and other's are scales or chords or licks or arpeggios or the unexplained results of experiments come back to haunt me.
Hope that helps a little. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 570 Location: gothenburg, sweden
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:59 am Post subject:
start with frankus advice, i.e.: learn caged, and learn to play all scales and arpeggios with three and FOUR octave fingerings. especially four notes per string scales is great if you want to move around efficiently.
but more important, i believe, is to take scott hendersons advice and practice on one string only. especially arpeggios. you'll learn intervals and you'll really train your ear.
guthrie is using A LOT of postion shifts. with his three finger style, he often seems to stay in postitions and then slide fast between them. and that kind of works
sing along with your playing, especially while practicing fingerings (which basically is a waste of time if you're past beginner stage and if your goal isn't to becom the next michael angelo), and say/sing out the names of the notes loud.
a very good and musical method of conquering the fretboard while paradoxically staying away from ruts and repetitive fingerings can be found in wayne krantz's "an improvisers os". frankus has benefited immensely from this book ...
oh, and yes, one more thing: practice licks and musical examples that uses big parts of the neck and postion shifts. that's probably the best method. transcribe (or pick out by ear) or read a lot of non guitar music, that will force u to find your own way of getting around the fretboard.
a very good and musical method of conquering the fretboard while paradoxically staying away from ruts and repetitive fingerings can be found in wayne krantz's "an improvisers os". frankus has benefited immensely from this book ...
Agreed, lending Josh my copy lead to a significant saving on the Boss RC-2 I bought earlier in the year.
I got a book on Jazz Structures recently and that really pushes single octave arpeggios and inversions which make for really slick changes _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 570 Location: gothenburg, sweden
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject:
so i guess josh felt he got stuck in a rut with the rc-2, and opted for some an effective improvisation workout "when you're tired of playing the same licks over and over -- let boss rc-2 do it for u!"
frankus wrote:
single octave arpeggios and inversions which make for really slick changes
ah, yes! if u want to be effective, economical, learn to play musically and put nice notes in nice places, one octave arpeggios and 'small note groupings' (eh, large notes ... ?) is the shit!
but now we where talking about making noise all over the neck. not making music
question: how do u play several parts of the neck at the same time (sans open strings)? that's the question.
so i guess josh felt he got stuck in a rut with the rc-2, and opted for some an effective improvisation workout "when you're tired of playing the same licks over and over -- let boss rc-2 do it for u!"
Josh kinda runs the local guitar shop, he's a cool dude.
sumis wrote:
question: how do u play several parts of the neck at the same time (sans open strings)? that's the question.
Well I'm tinkering with playing chords and harmonics played at a slant to kinda match the chord shape. And I was looking at the weaker harmonics and behind the nut bends..
I've always been a Stanley Jordan fan, and a Jennifer Batten fan, and I now have a Suhr and tapping on it is surprisingly easy.. but the tricky thing with this is getting two rhythms going at the same time _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Joined: 02 Jun 2007 Posts: 5 Location: Northern Ireland
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject:
Ok guys, there's ALOT to take in here (for me anyway).
Can you give me an article or something to check out to get started? Like for example what the fuck caged is? I've heard a few definitions, but none seem to explain what the hell the system has to do with the c,a,g,e and d chords [/u][/i] _________________ http://duggan.dmusic.com - My playing
I’m a big advocate of single string playing for nailing the fretboard. I’ve pretty much abandoned pattern playing, and always think notes. I’m getting better and better with time, and it’s starting to pay off big. I am completely free to move around the fretboard anywhere anytime, anyway I want. It is impossible to completely get out of patterns seeing that scales and chords/arpeggios are essentially patterns, and the musical system is as well. But visualzing the guitar more like a piano let’s me get around well.
The biggest hurdle I’ve approached with this method is playing through changes effectively. Staying in one key is no problem, or even vamping on one chord where changing around is not as mandatory. But playing through changes you need to be on top of it all the time. But now, however it is all coming around from constant work and pushing. I can’t wait for a couple years when it is pretty seamless, and in like ten years when it is very free.
Anyways, how did I get there, I always think notes. I wrote a little article a couple years ago, here is the link, that approaches the single string approach.
I would say at the fastests 1 string per week. Though not impossible to progress that fast, spend at least 20 minutes a day going over that one string. Make sure you know what note you are on at all times. Don't just play from pattern. Think "c" or Bb" or "F#" or whatever note you are on. Whether you call it sharp or flat doesn't matter too, too much. As long as you are able to know that Gb is the same as F#. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter too much if you spell out, for instance, a Eb major scale: Eb, F, G, G#, Bb, C, D, Eb" or whatever, as long as you are aware of what you are doing. So visualizing G# instead of Ab might work for you.
Anyways, just make sure you know what you're doing. And if it takes you 1 month to really get down 1 string, maybe that seems long but in 5 months you'll really have the neck down (at least single string) considering you may have been playing a couple years already, or more, what is 6 months.
Though if you feel real good about it after 1 week, move on, no need to beat a dead horse, as they say.
Good luck, let me know if I can help you in anyway.
It's a tricky one isn't it... I once thought of following Stanley Jordan and Robert Fripp into the EADGCF tuning, as the EADGBE tuning is the sol reason I think there are patterns in playing guitar. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 214 Location: Hong Kong
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:05 am Post subject:
I believe Mick Goodrick also uses single string concept... i remember reading an article by Mike Stern who had lessons from Mick Goodrick regarding this way of thinking...
Just Play!!!
Cheers
M@ _________________ "My day job feeds my family, my night gig feeds my ego!"
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