Guthrie Govan Discussion :: View topic - A musical discussion....
Help support this site by shopping at Amazon through our link.
Guthrie Govan Discussion Forum Index

Guthrie Govan Discussion
The Official Guthrie Govan Discussion Board

www.GuthrieGovan.co.uk

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

 

 
A musical discussion....
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Guthrie Govan Discussion Forum Index -> Techniques, Theory, and Musical Education
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
hawtlicks7



Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 3
Location: roc(k)chester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think this question has a lot more to it than just guitar playing. with no disrespect to either vai or henderson, vai is more of a "showman" than scott henderson. at a vai concert besides the music there is also some level of a stage show, and he attempts to do more than just play his music. so i think perhaps he plays the same solos everynight because it allows him to spice it up a bit. what i mean by this, is that anyone whos been to a vai show will tell you that he plays in such a way to make you believe that it is effortless, he will make gestures, flip his frethand grip over and under the fretboard, and just do subtle things to make an aural thing more into something visual that perhaps non guitar players can enjoy. im not saying hes not there to play to the best of abilities, im just saying hes also trying to put on a show. if you want to hear him improvise the G3 shows were a step in that direction, but it can also be argued that perhaps he worked out his solos on those jams from night to night. i guess youd have to hear him at 2 or 3 venues on the same tour to decide that. scott henderson on the other hand, is there to play music and nothing else. im not saying hes a robot who shows no emotion or enthusiam, but its clear that his music is at the forefront and not a fancy lightshow or flashy rockstar moves or anything like that. i think it takes a lot more confidence for someone like scott henderson to get up there and just go for it everynight, whereas vai always has his crowd who knows the songs and are going to be more than happy to hear a close replica of what they heard on the album. over the years you can defnitely chart an improvement in vais ability, go listen to Flex-able and then listen to something a little more recent, its a night and day difference. but i think scott henderson has more of a future. what i mean by that, is that someone like scott henderson can play gigs until he dies doing what he does, look at bb king, the mans 80 and people cant get enough. scott henderson can reach a larger audience of listeners i think, because his musical range is greater. scott plays a mean blues, and that music reaches all generations, its universal because it something that everyone can understand and be able to follow its form. some of vais matieral is so out there that most who dont appreciate the level of guitar proficiency just think its "noise". scott can play whatever he wants, but vai is sort of strapped in to what hes been doing, i think if steve showed up to one of gigs and ditched his regular set for a little jazz on a certain night, his fans would be pissed and complain that he didnt do his regular stuff. so i think henderson wins on simply having the freedom to do what he wants.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 570
Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

personally, i prefer flexable to most of vai's stuff. partially 'cause i grew up on it, partially since too much of vai's later stuff is too sillly and kitschy for my tastes, brilliant kitsch by a musical genius, but still kitsch.

he took some seriuos musical chances in the early days -- summed up with PaW -- and the old 8-track stuff has som really nice grit to it. his tone was undeniably better in the 80's as well ...

i'm as huge a vai fan as anyone, but most of the shows i've seen has been too much about showmanship. that was cool in the DLR band. it's not for grown up musical geniuses like vai Wink ditch the costume changes man!

i've seen scott henderson/tribal tech live as many times as vai, and although the showmanship is totally different, it's there -- on another level: scott kicking over covingtons drum kit, forcing him to finish the last three songs of the gig with snare and bass drum only; the never ending mariujana and alcohol jokes; covington farting and forcing the rest of the band to leave the stage, all in the middle of a band improv; etc, etc. far from laser gloves, but certainly entertaining, and everything actually organicallly connected to the music (i've seen scott play pretty drunk; i don't care what people say, it was fun). the laser gloves and piruettes of vai is non-musical ornaments -- NOTHING WRONG with that (in Las Vegas), but just not what i prefer these days -- sespecially considering what vai is capable of.

.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawtlicks, please don't take offence, but I've editted your post so it can be read by non-shredders as well Wink

hawtlicks7 wrote:
I think this question has a lot more to it than just guitar playing. With no disrespect to either Vai or Henderson; Vai is more of a "showman" than Scott Henderson.

At a Vai concert, besides the music, there is also some level of a stage show and he attempts to do more than just play his music. So I think perhaps he plays the same solos every night because it allows him to spice it up a bit.

What I mean by spice is: anyone who's been to a Vai show will tell you that he plays in such a way to make you believe that it is effortless, he will make gestures, flip his fret-hand grip over and under the fretboard, and just do subtle things to make an aural thing more into something visual that perhaps non-guitar players can enjoy. I'm not saying hes not there to play to the best of abilities, I'm just saying hes also trying to put on a show.

If you want to hear Vai improvise, the G3 shows were a step in that direction, but it can also be argued that, perhaps, he worked out his solos on those jams from night to night. I guess you'd have to hear him at 2 or 3 venues on the same tour to decide that.

Scott Henderson on the other hand, is there to play music and nothing else. I'm not saying hes a robot who shows no emotion or enthusiam, but it's clear that his music is at the forefront and not a fancy light-show or flashy rock-star moves or anything like that.

I think it takes a lot more confidence for someone like Scott Henderson to get up there and just go for it every night, whereas Vai always has his crowd who knows the songs and are going to be more than happy to hear a close replica of what they heard on the album.

Over the years you can definitely chart an improvement in Vai's ability: go listen to Flex-able and then listen to something a little more recent, its a night and day difference; but i think Scott Henderson has more of a future. What i mean by that, is that someone like Scott Henderson can play gigs until he dies doing what he does, look at B.B. King: the mans 80 and people cant get enough.

Scott Henderson can reach a larger audience of listeners, I think, because his musical range is greater. Scott plays a mean blues, and that music reaches all generations, its universal because it something that everyone can understand and be able to follow its form.

Some of Vai's material is so out there that most who don't appreciate the level of guitar proficiency just think its "noise". Scott can play whatever he wants; Vai is sort of strapped in to what he's been doing.

I think if Steve showed up to one of gigs and ditched his regular set for a little jazz on a certain night, his fans would be pissed and complain that he didn't do his regular stuff; so I think Henderson wins on simply having the freedom to do what he wants.

_________________
Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m really starting to see that using Vai as an example was the wrong move, because in case anyone hasn’t noticed he is one of the most amazing guitarist and musicians to ever play. It’s because of what seems to be his ability to play anything, with great ears, technique, feel, drive, charisma that makes us love him, and be astounded by him.
But it does seem for the most part the idea was taken for what it was supposed to be…

I do believe Vai has gotten better over the years, in some respects. But I got this great video from a friend recently of Vai playing with a trio a little while after Flexable came out, and he was in Alcatraz. But anyways it was at M. Institute, and the playing was pretty great, and not to mention he was improvising a lot. It is the most refreshing Vai thing I have seen in awhile. He was full of ideas and pushing himself, and probably only about 24 years old or so, if that.

Since then his feel has gotten better, his technique marginally, his stage presence, definitely. But…I keep hoping that he will say to himself one day in the near future, “I want to go back to the roots, and do a 70 gig Trio tour or something, with my rig cut down, and put together a set with variations of my (vai) themes” .

I’d be very curious to talk to him after the tour to see how the situation affected his playing. He’s gotten pretty comfortable with the big band. But putting him out in the open with no safe guards and maybe a little improv would be sweet. I’d definitely buy tickets to that.

I have yet to see Scott live, though I hope to soon (being in America on the east coast isn’t very helpful, though I’m in NYC, come on!!!) but I’ve noticed that my favorite album and videos is always of his live stuff. The recent double live effort, to me, is his best playing to date, and way more enjoyable to me then any of his studio albums. But I guess I love the live feel, and spontaneous stuff. I guess that’s why I improvise. This also goes for people like Wayne Krantz and Allan Holdsworth. To me there live stuff is by far the best, especially when you are there.

Sorry, I’m not sure how this helps the discussion, but it was all on my mind…

Cheers
_________________
www.timmirth.com
www.myspace.com/redsidevisible
www.myspace.com/mirthfulmusic
www.reverbnation.com/timmirth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
phil_b



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well firstly i love Vai and Guthrie.

When you speak about Vai as a guitarist you have to think that playing guitar is 3rd on his list of things to do. I have watched many interviews with Vai and he says firstly he is a buisness man secondly he is a composer and then thirdly he is a guitarist. Vai writes his solos coz that is how he wants the songs to sound. Then when you think about Vai as an improviser he did start off in the Frank Zappa band where he did have to solo over some of the hardest rhythm section changes known to man, so the guy does do pretty well for a strummer.

I love Guthries improv, it makes the songs interesting everytime. But i have 1 question. Most of us have met Guthrie and there is no hiding it he is a little crazy. When i spoke to him about his album he said he cant remember how to play most of it so he just makes it up. So has Guthrie got amazing at impro coz he cant remember the parts in between the melodies? Im only joking of course I no Guthrie could play anything but i do think there is a case for an argument here Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RD



Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phil_b wrote:
Well firstly i love Vai and Guthrie.

When you speak about Vai as a guitarist you have to think that playing guitar is 3rd on his list of things to do. I have watched many interviews with Vai and he says firstly he is a buisness man secondly he is a composer and then thirdly he is a guitarist. Vai writes his solos coz that is how he wants the songs to sound. Then when you think about Vai as an improviser he did start off in the Frank Zappa band where he did have to solo over some of the hardest rhythm section changes known to man, so the guy does do pretty well for a strummer.

I love Guthries improv, it makes the songs interesting everytime. But i have 1 question. Most of us have met Guthrie and there is no hiding it he is a little crazy. When i spoke to him about his album he said he cant remember how to play most of it so he just makes it up. So has Guthrie got amazing at impro coz he cant remember the parts in between the melodies? Im only joking of course I no Guthrie could play anything but i do think there is a case for an argument here Wink


Argument for what exactly? I mean, first of all, I do believe that Vai is more of a businessman then Guthrie is, but I don't believe that business came first place when Vai started out and I doubt if his priorities are really like you said. Even if he said it himself doesn't mean that it's true.

I believe his love for music came first - that's what got him started. But I can imagine that after reaching a certain financial level, it becomes very time consuming to manage everything in your life, especially when you want to do everything yourself. On top of that he's also a father (!!!) who needs to make sure money keeps rolling in since you got hungry birds to feed. I do believe that improvising has a lower priority in Vai's case in comparison with Guthrie, but I'm repeating myself it seems... I've already said that. There's nothing wrong with that choice - great compositions mean more to me then most improvisations for that matter. I think to many guitarists are way too busy with noodling solos over some chord progression while they can't compose a decent song. That says something about the musician but I can't put it in words exactly. I think that that's what Hendrix separated him from the pack - being able to compose decent songs wich then formed a foundation to solo over, so then his blues improvisational skills came also in handy ofcourse. He didn't do one or the other; he could do both.

And Guthrie a little crazy? Eh... isn't it much crazier to have a job you wouldn't even go to if it wasn't for the money and try to act normal as if everything is ok at the same time? That sums up most people if you ask me, including myself at the moment (although I am looking for a way out).

Guthrie is an example to all of us, because people like him do what they really love to do and make a living that way. That's not crazy to me; it seems like he does what he's supposed to do in life and most other people are not. Another difference is that people like Guthrie, Malmsteen, Al Di Meola, etc., are not to be found at internet forums (with exceptions). That is also something to think about if you would like to be a pro yourself. They just don't have time for that cause they are too busy developing their art.

Also: I think Guthrie's whole state of mind, being kind and gentle + having fun, is just as inspirational as his musical abilities are.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points RD. Especially about the level necessary to be a pro musician. My advise is bust your butt before you get married. Not that I don't love my wife, or regret the decision, but other things become important other than music. It's impossible to be as selfish with your time or money. And really you need to be selfish to begin your career, in a sense.

You must be willing to put yourself out there without a lot of money, you must be willing to spend hours constantly refining and refining. You need to spend money playing gigs, and recording, then giving everything away for free. You must be willing eat Ramon noodles 19/20 meals. There was time I was doing that, but I needed to gig more, but then I met someone and things change.

Now I have to think about more then myself when thinking of music. But the bug is still there, I still practice and play every second I get, which is still averaging 3 hours a day or so, so i can't complain too much, but I do play very early in the morning and very late at night, to try and work around a schedule.

Sorry this is a bit off topic, but hopefully someone can get something out of this.

Actually one of the biggest problems I've had with music is it is a very selfish thing. And I'm really interested in trying to help the world now, and sometimes I think, "who am I helping working on 12 tone theory, or coming up with different ways to teach or play?"

I just don't know sometimes, I feel like there are many more important things going on in the world then me working on soloing in 7/8...like global warming, war, poverty, the energy crisis. I guess that's why I'm going to school for Electrical engineering, and hopefully I can help with fuel cells and alternative energy sources.

I've done music school and it was alright, but kind of pointless, I probably could have learned all that from a couple private teachers and a 100th of the cost, but that is life.

Anyways, I still hope things will work out professionally for me, but it is a heck of lot to put in when you have to worry about providing for other people then yourself. So if you are single and trying to make this work, get to work, don't regret the time you have now, get out there and good luck.

Now back on topic... anyone who is a jazz musician knows that the only way to get better is to perform live, it's like practicing for 5 years, every time you go on stage and improvise and have to do it on the spot. I think that's why some improvisers seem to always get better. But I think the trick in that is you have to challenge yourself. Make the progressions challenging and different throughout the show.

So maybe you have one song that changes keys (hard keys too) with time changes in the solo, etc... then you have a song that's one chord in 4/4 and you have to make it interesting, John Scofield seems to be incredible with both of these for example. Fast songs, slow songs.

Actually a very good friend of mine and great guitarist told me, his senior year of jazz studies, that he never worked on playing on fast tune, we had a very old school teaching staff, who were great, but chill, if you know what mean. They were way into cool harmony things, less is more stuff, but mostly they taught and played in that swinging bebop sort of style. That was until Bobby Selvaggio, a great sax young, Liebman like(actually studied with him), came to teach there. And all of the sudden Jeremey was like, "wow how did I miss the fast stuff?" and it takes a whole different approach, especially in fast difficult changes. Especially really, really fast changes. So anyways I think you get the point...

If you throw in changes that are hard for you and I strongly believe you will constantly be making your self better. Maybe even every night try changing the key of every song, until you go through all 12 keys for the starting key. That would be a trip.

RD I think when you talk about the composition thing you are on the money, but I don't believe that improvisers who push themselves will suffer from this non-good composition syndrome, unless they don't try. I do think it is a problem in the "jammy" improv stuff. Even the so called "fusion" guys who play over diatonic chord progression in different modes. The soloing seems stale and overused. Guthrie is great because he can actually play over changes that change key and aren't all modal sounding. I think that is a big problem in the "fusion" community, there are a lot of guys soloing on diatonic modal changes and think that they are pushing the boundaries. Anyways, that's a different topic...

Cheers.
_________________
www.timmirth.com
www.myspace.com/redsidevisible
www.myspace.com/mirthfulmusic
www.reverbnation.com/timmirth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JasonK



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Location: United States

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems as if for the most part, there is a consensus in this group that everything should be "improvised" at all times, with that being the ultimate measure of being a guitarist.

The complaint about guitarists, such as the oft-mentioned Vai, playing his solos the way he wrote and recorded them (!) comes up quite often.

This is analogous to saying that all the parts of a song should be changed. Why stop with the solo? Why not change all the lyrics randomly? Why not change the main themes/melodies/riffs, etc. Play the song in a different key, different time signature? Would that be proof of someone's improv skills, to morph a song into a completely unrecognizable, new form?

Also, not everyone would agree that you lack authenticity if you don't play tiny clubs in a trio format. Vai's thing is obviously orchestration and reproduction of the material live. I don't get why he faces virtual musical vilification for that (and for playing an Ibanez! ; )

Also, as others here have alluded to; every "improvisation" is not made up on the spot. It is very often a re-arranging of *gasp* licks and patterns, previously worked out.

Don't get me wrong, improv is fun, and I can definitely appreciate seeing/hearing someone such as Guthrie do it, but it is not the be-all-and-end-all of music/guitar playing. There is something to be said for composing memorable melodies.
_________________
www.myspace.com/jasonsnewmusic

"Kelly has a fabulous sense of melody.."- Michael Molenda, Guitar Player magazine

"Much better songwriting than most instrumental stuff out there." - Dave Weiner (Steve Vai band)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me improvisation is the best way of determining how well someone plays, it's a combination of musical knowledge and technique that the player is readily able to use, the stuff that's been internalized and their ability to create and develop ideas.

What they internalize might be other people's licks, grip chords, scales, sounds, intervals, tapping, string skipping whatever and how they use them.

Give someone a week and you'll get all sorts of ornamentation and frippery, as well as some interesting ideas. But time for composition just gives more musical ideas for an arsenal that eventually will show itself in improvisation... essentially you've given them woodshedding time.

Think of it like theatrical auditions, they come in two parts : a reading from the part being auditioned, a reading from one of your favourite parts. AKA: how much can you pick up on how to fit in with this role and director on the hoof and how much thought can you put into your acting and interpretation.
_________________
Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonK wrote:
It seems as if for the most part, there is a consensus in this group that everything should be "improvised" at all times, with that being the ultimate measure of being a guitarist.

The complaint about guitarists, such as the oft-mentioned Vai, playing his solos the way he wrote and recorded them (!) comes up quite often.

This is analogous to saying that all the parts of a song should be changed. Why stop with the solo? Why not change all the lyrics randomly? Why not change the main themes/melodies/riffs, etc. Play the song in a different key, different time signature? Would that be proof of someone's improv skills, to morph a song into a completely unrecognizable, new form?

Also, not everyone would agree that you lack authenticity if you don't play tiny clubs in a trio format. Vai's thing is obviously orchestration and reproduction of the material live. I don't get why he faces virtual musical vilification for that (and for playing an Ibanez! ; )

Also, as others here have alluded to; every "improvisation" is not made up on the spot. It is very often a re-arranging of *gasp* licks and patterns, previously worked out.

Don't get me wrong, improv is fun, and I can definitely appreciate seeing/hearing someone such as Guthrie do it, but it is not the be-all-and-end-all of music/guitar playing. There is something to be said for composing memorable melodies.



Let me first say, my intention was not to make this “jazz vs. classical” battle (in the most generic terms) where Jazz is improv and Classical is composed. That battle is way too old and bold in its assumptions.

But this was more to be focused on how it affects the musician’s musicianship in the long run. I think some facts that are generally accepted are:

1. Writing good tunes is a great talent. Being a good composer is a special gift that can’t be overstated.
2. Improvising is another gift. Good improvisers are literally composing beautiful things on the spot.
3. Playing an entire Vai set, is an impressive feat by anyone. Kind of like Liszt in his day, though I would say one is a little more prolific and productive (musically anyways) than the other. Liszt has written so much music, it’s kind of ridiculous (different times though)
4. Becoming a good improviser takes a lot of time, and you will struggle with it for the rest of your life. Scott Henderson still doesn’t listen to his stuff more than he has to; he still thinks he has a lot of room to improve.

I’m sure there are others but, anyways my curiosity has got me wondering whether taking one approach is advantageous in the end, or is it talent and drive that will trump any approach out there?

Frankus, you make a very good point when you talk about improvising sort of being a measure of a person’s musicianship. For one reason or other it does seem to expose people’s playing, with no remorse. I guess that’s why I wonder if improvising in a live setting will ultimately take you to a higher level. As pointed out before Vai improvised over Zappa’s permutations, do you think he’d be quite the guitarist he is today without that experience? With improvising there is always this thing staring you in the face to do better. Now when you play a whole set that is written out, is it safer knowing you have a “solo” that is already generally accepted and considered good? There is no pressure to have to do better. Do you think this makes you complacent with your ability?

Now I guess this all begs the question of whether it is really necessary to split the 2 up? I think it’s fairly obvious that this is not an option. As described by many Vai fans, they would feel jipped if he didn’t play what was written. There is also the argument that it is a big part of the song, and there really are no “solos”. I feel there are definitely solos in Vai tunes, but that’s just me I guess, but when there is Verse, chorus, verse, chorus “solo” etc… it kind of seems that’s what he’s going for.

Jason… I definitely wasn’t trying to imply a trio setting is better than what Vai currently does. Being a big Zappa fan, how could I not like the potential of a quality bigger band. And seeing Vai on numerous occasions has always been a thrill. He does seemingly play effortlessly, and has turned into a very entertaining individual. So the Trio for me is a kind of selfish pleasure. I’m always interested in seeing musicians with no safety net, to see what happens. It seems to bring out the best in their playing, at least to me. However I did hear Vai was thinking of throwing a violin and different instruments into the next tour, that could be very cool, and I would love to see that.

BTW…Do you (anyone) think that what seems Vai’s ability to play effortlessly affects his progression as a musician and guitarist? Meaning it appears he does not have to work to play his tunes, does that mean anything he does is effortless? Is it possible for Vai to challenge himself? I’m sure it is, but the way he comes across it’s like he could play anything.

It’s a curious thing, this music isn’t it?
_________________
www.timmirth.com
www.myspace.com/redsidevisible
www.myspace.com/mirthfulmusic
www.reverbnation.com/timmirth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RD



Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mirth wrote:

I just don't know sometimes, I feel like there are many more important things going on in the world then me working on soloing in 7/8...like global warming, war, poverty, the energy crisis. I guess that's why I'm going to school for Electrical engineering, and hopefully I can help with fuel cells and alternative energy sources.


Free Energy has already been invented but won't be given to us, probably because of money reasons. The oil industry makes certain people very rich and as long as these people are in control you can invent whatever you want but they'll simply death threat you or your family if you plan to release it. Another reason 'they' don't release it is the way the economy would become unstable etc etc.

A demonstration of H2O to HHO on Youtube here (cars running on water, etc):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GfXNtIv5HyA

Energy by using magnets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvHb41KP7To&NR=1

There's lot's of conspiracy stuff on the internet about all kinds of things.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Guthrie Govan Discussion Forum Index -> Techniques, Theory, and Musical Education All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group