Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: Guthrie's OTT-ness; It's a Great Thing.
Guthrie's over-the-top quality or characteristic in his playing is something that people either really love (like most of us do here) or not dig at all (even if they appreciate the skills involved). I know I've always dug it and have been seeking out such players since my early teens in the late 70's and early 80's. When most rock fans were into EVH and Randy Rhoads around that time, I was into DiMeola, McLaughlin, Holdsworth and, later, Metheny and Scott Henderson. It took Yngwie's arrival for me to get back into rock again. Now, Jimi and Jeff Beck - they've always been near the top for me because they've always had that OTT-ness.
Anyway, I guess that OTT quality is something that really excites and moves us or we wouldn't be here. I'm not sure why I'm drawn to it; I guess it's something that's just inborn. After Yngwie, there was MacAlpine and others in the Shrapnel/neoclassical school of playing, but it was Satch and Vai that took it to another level in terms of creativity and OTT-ness. Then the shred scene crashed with the arrival of Nirvana and grunge but the emergence of underground monsters like Lane, Garsed, Gambale, Buckethead, Bumblefoot, etc. kept it interesting for someone like me who could never get enough of that OTT-ness, but they weren't quite enough. Either they were too fusiony or polite or too weird or avant-garde. So I stuck it out with the G3 guys but that formula started getting a little too stale for my taste.
It took Guthrie to wrap it all up in one seamless and potent package. Now I'm one happy camper. Give me some new Guthrie clips, songs, vids or live shows and the OTT withdrawl symptoms disappear for a good long while. Then I start craving new stuff from Guthrie again! I guess it has to do with my fascination with people and things that are colossal, titanic, gargantuan, cutting-edge, etc - mega-historic figures like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Octavian Augustus, Genghis Khan, Leonardo da Vinci, Newton, Napoleon Bonaparte, Beethoven, Wagner, Nietzsche, Einstein, etc. People who pushed the envelope and essentially changed the world - yeah, these people were pretty over-the-top and I love them for it. Some of them went overboard, but man, they went all out. It's why I also love reading about astronomy, cosmology, theoretical physics and other cutting edge sciences.
Anyway, thought I'd bring up this aspect of Guthrie's artistry. We can't deny it; that OTT-ness is a big part of his style and identity. Here are some clips of Guthrie going OTT with the Young Punx.
That fade out solo for 'Rockall' at the end is a good example of that OTT-ness I need every now and then. It's like some sort of release. The clean solo in the middle of 'Drum and Bacharach' is another nice sample of OTT virtuosity. Really great stuff - makes the whole song enjoyable. And I also think Guthrie's contributions here with the Young Punx bode well for marrying OTT guitar with techno-pop in the future. I already like what Guthrie is doing with the Young Punx better than attempts at such unions from the likes of Satch, Buckethead and JB. All I can say is, "Keep that OTT-ness coming, Guthrie! Can't get enough of it!" _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
First, I think if you keep posting clips like this, then there needs to be a place on the forum where we can sell our guitars after having given up
But in all seriousness, I think that for the 'OTT' quality to really stick, it has to be unpredictable, which is why Shrapnel never did it for a lot of people. It has to make you feel like "Whoa! That was unexpected! Where is this going?" and keep you guessing.
Of the other guys mentioned, Lane did that for me the most, but after a while it started to become a little predictable because he would always incorporate some kind of diminished tonality. With Guthrie, though, you get hints of all these players and a lot of just himself, but he's like shaking up the dice and letting them roll--you don't know what you're going to get until you've got it.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:56 am Post subject:
liquidtension wrote:
First, I think if you keep posting clips like this, then there needs to be a place on the forum where we can sell our guitars after having given up
But in all seriousness, I think that for the 'OTT' quality to really stick, it has to be unpredictable, which is why Shrapnel never did it for a lot of people. It has to make you feel like "Whoa! That was unexpected! Where is this going?" and keep you guessing.
Of the other guys mentioned, Lane did that for me the most, but after a while it started to become a little predictable because he would always incorporate some kind of diminished tonality. With Guthrie, though, you get hints of all these players and a lot of just himself, but he's like shaking up the dice and letting them roll--you don't know what you're going to get until you've got it.
Gosh, that one clean solo just blew me away!
Yep, you hit the proverbial nail on the head. You never know where Guthrie is going, so he takes you to some new places every time he plays or takes a solo. You really can't say that about many players these days. Hardly any, actually, sorry to say... It's as though Guthrie has an endless well of ideas that he can constantly draw from. That unpredictability is certainly what makes the OTT thing work. But we all know that being unpredictable is a lot easier said than done.
Yeah, that clean solo in the middle of 'Drum and Bacharach' is pretty insane. That quote from 'The Flight of the Bumblebee' near the end of the solo is great. I kind of wonder what the audience was thinking hearing Guthrie do what he was doing on this gig. They come to bop up and down to dance and party music and get treated to some of the most sublime virtuosic guitar playing around.
So, were you always attracted to OTT playing? Is your interest in OTT kind of thing extend to other areas of interests and in your life? I guess that's sort of what I was getting at with the thread. I certainly draw inspiration from that aspect of musicians or leaders (political, military, business, etc.) or scientists or writers or people who really stand out in other various areas of discipline and craft. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:22 am Post subject:
OVER THE TOP!
Guthrie's Counterpart in the Animals World
_________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
I'm ashamed to say that I had never bothered to check out young punx before
That band is great! They're creating dancey intelligent music that's full of humour and great playing. This is exactly where real guitar playing is going to come back into the mainstream and this is where Guthrie is going to make his name. Awesome stuff!
I'm pretty sure the shipping forecast number 'Rockall' would be lost on the Tokyo audience somehow
So, were you always attracted to OTT playing? Is your interest in OTT kind of thing extend to other areas of interests and in your life? I guess that's sort of what I was getting at with the thread. I certainly draw inspiration from that aspect of musicians or leaders (political, military, business, etc.) or scientists or writers or people who really stand out in other various areas of discipline and craft.
I think the thing kind of playing I have been attracted to is better categorized as 'uniqueness' combined with excellence, which is similar but just a little broader. I've always been attracted to musicians who were doing something a little different and a little better than music as I knew it at that given time. And it usually turned out that those who fit into that 'unique and excellent' category also had the ability to be OTT when they wanted.
I guess what I'm saying is, if it was just limited to OTT playing, there would be lot of guys to whom I'd be listening right now who, in reality, don't do anything for me.
Perhaps an innocent example is Coltrane's Ascension album. I use that album because it is an extreme example...and because I'm fairly confident that Coltrane won't be popping around this forum anytime soon But even the European Tours have some over the top stuff that I just can't get into.
Anyway, I think I generally tend to gravitate toward 'outside-the-box' type of people in my other interests. I really like the kind of person who can be in a conversation, be asked a conventional question, and then step back and not be pinned by established categories but give a fresh perspective. But, for me, at the end of the day, that person must also be practical and make sense.
Maybe that's what it is with Guthrie, too. His playing steps back a bit and isn't limited to pre-defined idioms (which is the surprise element to his playing), but he comes at it from beyond the music. But his playing always makes sense even when he is over the top.
Just stopped by to say that this board is absolutely hilarious. I've never seen a forum with more nut huggers than this one. Even the Petrucci board is better than this place
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject:
Psydelik wrote:
Just stopped by to say that this board is absolutely hilarious. I've never seen a forum with more nut huggers than this one. Even the Petrucci board is better than this place
Ah, yes, Guthrie is loved indeed! But then Guthrie just isn't your average joe player or musician who has a forum, is he? Petrucci board? Hmmm... I notice a lot of folks who populate that board aren't into Petrucci at all. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Just stopped by to say that this board is absolutely hilarious. I've never seen a forum with more nut huggers than this one.
Thanks, we try and inject a bit of humour, there's quite a range of nationalities so a lot of different flavours of humour to cater for, it's really cool you stopped by to say so.
I don't know what a nut hugger is, but it must be pretty special given the quality of some of the guys on here. Is it something to do with squirrels? They're pretty cool animals.
I don't know about the Petrucci forum, it's not really my thing; but we can't all like the same thing can we
I don't know that I'd describe Guthries playing as OTT, Ed. OTT has conotations of poor taste or exhibitionism - I reckon it's more a sense of musical mischief - it's wired to his sense of humour. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Only joking guys! Sorry if I actually offended anyone. Woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. This board is actually one of the few I've been on with people who are actually level-headed and can discuss something without it turning into a all-out spam fest. Sorry again guys, I seriously don't know why I posted that.
or is your definition of a nut hugger someone who is down on their knees with their arms wrapped around Guthrie literally hugging his Nuts saying "I love you man"? If I found myself in that position I would probably just undo his guitar strap, nick his guitar and forget the hug bit!
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:20 am Post subject:
frankus wrote:
I don't know that I'd describe Guthries playing as OTT, Ed. OTT has conotations of poor taste or exhibitionism - I reckon it's more a sense of musical mischief - it's wired to his sense of humour.
It's a part of his style in terms of technique - whether that's physical execution of difficult passages at high speeds or advanced creative ideas that are derived from various musical sources - classical, jazz, country, etc. I guess it can be defined in many ways, in the same way as the term "shred" is. I personally like the term "over the top" better than mere "shred". As I said in the beginning of the thread, some people love that extreme aspect of it and some don't. Again, it comes down to personal taste.
There have always been musicians who pushed the envelope. People during Bach's day didn't think much of what Bach was doing, but he was clearly pushing the envelope and I'd consider a lot of his music "over the top" in terms of just how innovative he was and being so far ahead of his time. I mean it in a very good way. To me, it's just about going all out and being the very best one can be in whatever areas of discipline. I'm a casual hobbyist player at most and probably mess with a cheap acoustic at home a few hours a week. I work at Suhr and I don't even own an electric guitar. (Actually, I am holding Guthrie's number one Root Beer Standard for him at home but it's in the case and I don't touch it.) I'm a serious music fan as a listener and it's part of my job, but I tend to look at music more as an inspiration - food for the soul kinda thing.
I guess what I'm getting at is that the OTT thing is about pushing boundaries, going all out, and simply being the best one can be with one's talents - whatever those talents may be. It's why most of the people I'm into and read about aren't musicians at all although music is a very big part of what I'm into and it's part of my profession. There are really so many other things that interest me besides music and guitars. I just try to tie 'em all in together to be the best at what I'm doing. And Guthrie certainly is inspiring in that regard in the way he approaches his art and craft even though I'm really not trying to be a better guitar player or a musician; I'm just trying to be better in my line of work as an executive in a small growing company or as a husband/father or whatever else in life. I'm ambitious and set high goals. Life is damn short and I find guys who go all out to be the very best that they could possibly be very inspiring. And, to me, Guthrie is definitely one of those kinda guys. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Last edited by alexkhan on Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
or is your definition of a nut hugger someone who is down on their knees with their arms wrapped around Guthrie literally hugging his Nuts saying "I love you man"? If I found myself in that position I would probably just undo his guitar strap, nick his guitar and forget the hug bit!
_________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:45 am Post subject:
liquidtension wrote:
alexkhan wrote:
So, were you always attracted to OTT playing? Is your interest in OTT kind of thing extend to other areas of interests and in your life? I guess that's sort of what I was getting at with the thread. I certainly draw inspiration from that aspect of musicians or leaders (political, military, business, etc.) or scientists or writers or people who really stand out in other various areas of discipline and craft.
I think the thing kind of playing I have been attracted to is better categorized as 'uniqueness' combined with excellence, which is similar but just a little broader. I've always been attracted to musicians who were doing something a little different and a little better than music as I knew it at that given time. And it usually turned out that those who fit into that 'unique and excellent' category also had the ability to be OTT when they wanted.
I guess what I'm saying is, if it was just limited to OTT playing, there would be lot of guys to whom I'd be listening right now who, in reality, don't do anything for me.
Perhaps an innocent example is Coltrane's Ascension album. I use that album because it is an extreme example...and because I'm fairly confident that Coltrane won't be popping around this forum anytime soon But even the European Tours have some over the top stuff that I just can't get into.
Anyway, I think I generally tend to gravitate toward 'outside-the-box' type of people in my other interests. I really like the kind of person who can be in a conversation, be asked a conventional question, and then step back and not be pinned by established categories but give a fresh perspective. But, for me, at the end of the day, that person must also be practical and make sense.
Maybe that's what it is with Guthrie, too. His playing steps back a bit and isn't limited to pre-defined idioms (which is the surprise element to his playing), but he comes at it from beyond the music. But his playing always makes sense even when he is over the top.
I can totally relate to what you're saying. Yes, there's "OTT-ness" in virtually everything. You don't have to look around the world too much to see OTT stupidity and OTT evil in this world. Obviously, we're talking OTT excellence - whether that's technique, creativity, musical ideas, execution, or combination of all of the above, etc. You bring up Coltrane. Something similar can be said about Ornette Coleman and Eric Dolphy and their ilk in the early 60's. Yeah, what they were doing were totally OTT, but to what end?
Yes, people who think "outside-of-the-box" have always fascinated me - in whatever field or areas of discipline and profession. It seems that's almost necessary to really rise high above mediocrity and attain "greatness" or a high level of achievement. There's obviously a lot of risk involved as well. It also takes courage to do something different. We're getting into a whole new subject here, but it's good to talk about these things because different people take in things differently.
For instance, when I see an animal like the cheetah run down its prey, it's not the mere speed that I find impressive. It's the way it stalks its prey and how it approaches the hunt and then finally springing its power to accelerate, use its natural grace for aerodynamic efficiency, maintain balance darting at 70 mph (112 km per hour) over rough terrain and taking advantage of its amazing agility to change directions on a dime and finally succeed in bringing down its prey. And a predator like the cheetah only succeeds once in every 10 attempts... There's a lot going against it; but succeed it must to just survive. That was my reference to the cheetah. Being the fastest isn't good enough. There's a lot more involved in being a good hunter. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
or is your definition of a nut hugger someone who is down on their knees with their arms wrapped around Guthrie literally hugging his Nuts saying "I love you man"? If I found myself in that position I would probably just undo his guitar strap, nick his guitar and forget the hug bit!
As long as we're not Speedos I don't care those things are pure evil. I don't reckon any bloke over the age of 16 can wear speedos and not seem like a sexual deviant, they're creepy. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
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Now I'm one happy camper. Give me some new Guthrie clips, songs, vids or live shows and the OTT withdrawl symptoms disappear for a good long while. Then I start craving new stuff from Guthrie again! 
I guess it has to do with my fascination with people and things that are colossal, titanic, gargantuan, cutting-edge, etc - mega-historic figures like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Octavian Augustus, Genghis Khan, Leonardo da Vinci, Newton, Napoleon Bonaparte, Beethoven, Wagner, Nietzsche, Einstein, etc. People who pushed the envelope and essentially changed the world - yeah, these people were pretty over-the-top and I love them for it. Some of them went overboard, but man, they went 
