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American Soldier + War Crime

 
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bill®



Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:37 pm    Post subject: American Soldier + War Crime Reply with quote

How's about that footage of the American solider shooting the totally helpless wounded insurgent in the head at point blank range? He (along with several other wounded in the mosque where the incident occured) had already been treated by a different group of American soldiers sometime in the previous few days (can't remember exactly) and they'd been left to be picked up. This hadn't happened for reasons yet unkown. This was all filmed by I think an NBC cameraman. The point in the footage where the man is actually shot is has been blacked out for television viewing purposes as NBC obviously described it as "too gruesome'". I think the building was a mosque, but regardless it had been being used by rebels as a stronghold. The intial group of American soldiers took control of it, killing 10 and treating the surviving wounded.

I just thought I'd give those details for those who haven't yet seen the footage, and if any of you watch the news, I should hope you have.

I only just saw it then and it made me so upset I was shaking. Why do I bother with music and relationships and my education and all this shit when people are capable of THAT. How the fuck am I supposed to protect my loved ones - my family, my partner, my children (if I'm ever so foolish as to bring any into this world) from the very nature of humanity. We have the most capacity for negative acts. We think ourselves as kings, rulers of this planet, but we are less than animals. Granted, we do have the capacity to do and create wonderful beautiful things and to love each other, but do you see much of that happening in the world at the moment?

I feel quite depressed now.

Anyway, I realise politics probably isn't something that should be talked about on this board, but to any Americans here that voted for that redneck, homophobic, racist, lying, cokehead/born-again evangelist murderer of a President that you have for the next four years - you voted to hurt everyone except yourselves, and it probably isn't even going to work.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought US policy was that Iraqi soldiers attacked the mosques as it was too contentious for US soldiers to do so.

I saw footage, last november, of an Apache crew's night vision camera having them kill a few guards, blow up a tanker that another was hiding under and then shoot the guy as he dragged himself away.

Worse is the genocide in Sudan where the government is alledged to be helping the Janjaweed bandits in erradicating african refugees. Or the famines in Ethiopea.

Then there's Dubya planning to drill for oil in the Alaskan nature reserves.

I personally think it's time music took a larger part in the world. Frank Zappa was special ambassador to Czechoslovakia until he got ousted by James Baker after Zappa told Vaclev Havel it was an insult to have to deal with Dan Quail. Bob Geldorf's Band Aid set a precedent and it should be upheld more and more... rather than be covered by pop starlets.

If you read Dario Fo's plays one he examines the role of entertainers, the jongleur travelled from town to town satirising local politics and nobility, risking punishments such as having their tongue nailed to the door of the affronted nobility's house.

Woody, Arlo Guthrie or Bob Dylan kept up this tradition as do the likes of Frank Zappa, Zack De La Roche and Public Enemy or Manu Chao. There are jazz equivilents too: Dave Frishberg’s Looking Good. I think there should be some thought to making the audience fidget a bit from holding up a mirror to society as much as playing the super locrian mode over a functioning dominant.

That said I don't think it should be force fed or over done, it's an art
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really is too bad that we have to witness such things, but you have to ask, how long have things like this been going on? How many atrocities that have been committed through the history of mankind that will never be known? It is war, after all. How many wars have there been since the dawn of human history?

I'm not trying to excuse this act. It's deplorable, but I think we do have to ask what each one of us may have done in the same situation after having to dodge bullets non-stop for days on end. What about the beheadings of the innocents? Now it's believed that the woman director of CARE has been murdered as well. She poured her life into helping the Iraqi people and this is what she gets in return?

I do agree that these are troubled times, but what about WW2 and the Holocaust? What about all these other bloodthirsty conquerors of history who destroyed entire civilizations and murdered everyone in their paths? How about Stalin? Mao? The regime in North Korea? Sudan? Remember Rwanda in 1994 when 800,000 people were slaughtered in less than 2 weeks? Yes, we are capable of incredible destruction and outright evil.

I do agree religious fundamentalism is at the root of these serious conflicts (whether it be war or what's dividing this nation) that we are seeing today. I'm alarmed by the new political clout of the evangelical Christian far-right in this country. These would include the people who still believe that Earth is 6000 years old and that the Sun orbits the Earth and who want to make prayers a daily part of our children's school life.

I'm not into politics and really didn't care for either Bush or Kerry and don't want to get into it here. But I do hope that religion isn't brought into it and that it doesn't affect the way this country is governed. It's very scary to read that Bush told some other leaders that God told him to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. There's no doubt that this war was a mistake - and a colossal one at that. All we can hope for is that they minimize the fallout and all the negativity this war has generated. It wasn't a necessary war and the ineptitude of managing and planning by this Administration for the post-Saddam Iraq is truly pathetic and tragic. Let us just hope for the best...
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Will



Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What annoys me is that every bit of video footage i've seen of the americans in this war, they shout "wooo yeah" after firing mortars and firing guns. Personally, war is bad enough - but hearing someone doing that is just plain fucked up. Its surreal, almost like they think its all a game or something.

Sorry to any Americans on here that disagree, but literally every single bit of footage i've seen involves this. There was one on sky news the other day of some soldier saying "we're here to kick ass!"

Disturbing

Mad
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bill®



Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm aware that these kind of things must happen constantly, and obviously much worse things probably happen on a regular basis, but that piece of footage perfectly illustrates how insance this particular conflict is. I still cannot fathom how the American public would choose to elect someone that is so clearly - a liar, a hypocrite, a religious fanatic, and an imbecile.

True, many of these things could be said about many other politicians, but Dubya I think sets new standards for an American president in this day and age.

I think it is unfortunate that Bush was elected over Kerry, even though I don't think there really would have been THAT much difference between them (except it would have been good to get Condoleeza Rice out of the administration, as if there is an earthly incarnation of pure evil, I think it might well be her). What REALLY disturbs me is how the election result reflects the American psyche. People willingly vote to be ruled and led (into large-scale conflicts based on entirely false precedents) by someone who, along with everything previously mentioned, is clearly an ABSOLUTE FUCKING MORON. It's not like it's not obvious to anyone, the guy can barely string a sentence together half the time. Turn on the TV - comedians are joking about it. Read the paper - columnists openly talk about good ol' Dubya, that slow kid from Texas. Everybody who takes half a second to think has to realise that this man - this MORON - is ONLY in the position he is because of his family, his wealth, and his cronies. Again, this could be said of many politicians, but also again, I think he sets a new standard. As dumb as he is, he is only a puppet. He is worse than a liar - he IS a lie. And people knowingly vote for a lie, a hollow fucking figurehead - people are CHOOSING to be ignorant.

And that, my friends, is very scary.
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tafolla-howe-govan



Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Good ole NC

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree wholeheartedly with everything that has been said so far, there have been some absolutely disgusting things that have gone on in this war. What really troubles me is the fact that there have been over 100,000 Iraqi civilians who have been killed so far. That really deeply disturbs me. I'm sure a large percentage of these insurgents they are fighting are nothing more than common people whose lives have been forever scarred by what the U.S. led coalition has done. I have seen many pictures of little kids who have been literally blown apart or forever disfigured because of bombs that we have dropped on places that supposedly housed "terrorists". I wonder what kind of reaction those kid's families have have when they see Bush telling reporters that God told him what to do. How can these conservative Christians be so hypocritical? How can you be pro-life and support these horrible atrocities that are happening on a daily basis. I understand that this is war and awful things happen, but if this administration was that concerned about the wellbeing of the Iraqi people alot of these problems could have been circumvented.

I have a few friends in the military, some even facing possible deployment to Iraq, and when asked if they were scared about having to fight most of them said they were looking forward to killing somebody. It is really sad to see people I have grown up with be pretty much brainwashed in this manner. These people have been taught to kill on an almost everyday basis for years, and I guess it has finally rubbed off on them.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've a mate in the Territorial Army who's out there (TA is like the US Reservists I think) his philosophy was that he's out there because he's been told to, which sounds mindless until you compare it to the massacre in Serbia that could have been avoided if the Dutch peace keeping force hadn't taken a democratic vote on whether they wanted to risk their necks.

I think it's sad that kids are raised on computer games, they're the onces you see on the Michael Moore film saying "and it's cool cos we can plug the cd player into the APC intercom and everyone gets heavy metal piped to their helmet"

World's in a crazy space. I personally find it more harrowing digging through history and finding how crusades were diverted to suppress comunard insurrections in France or the doctrines of the bible were changed by Norman Barons to sedate the peasants and instill a class system. It has been happening since the beginning and it is better that we see the brutality that enables our way of life to continue. It's better that we see the man behind the curtain making the magnificent Oz huff and blow.

I think polititians are getting wise to this, I mean check out the high coverage of crimes, it makes people stay in and watch adverts, eat tv dinners... you have the weapons of mass destruction..
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Will



Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the American Goverment actually came up with a war computer game last year to encourage people to sign up.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was saddened to here Colin Powell is resigning. He seemed trustworthy and had seen enough of war first hand, to be reticent to wage war.
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Carlo



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:
I was saddened to here Colin Powell is resigning. He seemed trustworthy and had seen enough of war first hand, to be reticent to wage war.


It's obvious that Bush is getting rid of any cabinet member that has a hint of a dissenting voice. Bush's recent appointments have been people that are close and familiar to him and his policies. Condoleezza Rice is neither a great thinker nor a great manager. But she is a great lieutenant--that is, someone who can be relied on to convey and translate the president's inclinations into official policy. Certainly not the kind of person I would want taking Powell's position.

The war in Iraq is probably the most pigheaded acts of hubris in recent history....it's definitely a bad reflection on our country. Plus, it doesn't help that Bush spends like a drunken liberal. I really wanted Kerry to win mainly because if he did the Democratic party will be forced to take responsibility for the security of the country that is as much theirs' as anyone's. The greatest weakness of the war effort so far has been the way it has become a partisan affair. This is the fault of both sides: the Rove-like opportunists on the right and the Moore-like haters on the left. But in wartime, a president bears the greater responsibility for keeping the country united. And this president has fundamentally failed in this respect. I want this war to be as bipartisan as the Cold War, to bring both great parties to the supreme task in front of us, to offer differing tactics and arguments and personnel in pursuit of the same cause. This is not, should not be, and one day cannot be, Bush's war. And the more it is, the more America loses, and our enemies gain.

In the case of the troop shooting the insurgent, if the marine in question is found guilty of violating rules of conduct, then he should face punishment. But I have to say I cannot stand in judgment of this young man, after what must have been brutal, terrifying days of urban conflict. This is surely what they call "what happens in wartime." It may not be morally defensible; but it is psychologically understandable. Frankly, I'm grateful for what this man, probably the same age as me I think, is doing with his fellows in unspeakably terrifying circumstances. Compare his action with Abu Ghraib, and you can see the difference. One a snap judgment in a furious battle context; the other a pre-meditated example of abuse and murder of prisoners in U.S. custody.

And all it seems like to me is that we are trying to replace one form ideological extreme with another. Everyone deserves to be free, but not necessarily in the way Bush defines freedom.
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bush runs the government as if it was a large corporation and yet he runs up the biggest federal deficits ever. I don't consider myself a Democrat or a Republican or a Lib or a Con, but Bush is the most incompetent and outright dangerous and disturbing president I've ever seen. Have you ever seen a US president so hated across the world and in his own country in recent memory (or ever)?

Overall, I've been open-minded about his background and tolerant about his calls to faith and, like most Americans, I also believed him when he said Saddam had WMD's and that we needed to invade Iraq before the war. And now what? And his sidekick Cheney said that the Iraqi people will line the streets with flowers when we drive into the streets of Baghdad and elsewhere? Rolling Eyes

And now he will have to appease the evangelical far right who voted him into the White House again (20 million strong) by appointing extreme far-right leaning judges to the Supreme Court and the lower Federal Courts. And his cabinet will now be the "yes men and women" who'll just go out and execute his agendas. Do you know that when some European countries opposed the invasion of Iraq, Rice said, "Let's punish France, ignore Germany, and forgive Russia."?!? And now she's our top diplomat? Rolling Eyes It'll take a generation or longer, if ever, for us to repair the damage this administration will reap across the world and this nation. Really sad and disturbing to observe...
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Carlo



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with you Ed. I never heard Rice say that before, but I'm not surprised.

I don't consider myself liberal or conservative...Republican or Democrat...or whatever. These days though, labels have become obsolete. If I look at Bush's policies, I don't know what he is anymore. Conservative? not the kind of conservatism I used to know! He has got to have angered many of his republicans and conservative supporters as well as over the years. He is definitely a polarizing figure.

As for religion, it's good to have faith. But as a leader, your decisions should be based on a much wider scope. Morals are good....but a president's morals should be reflected by his policies. Helping the economically disadvantaged and avoiding violence unless it's absolutely necessary.....those are the kind of morals a GOOD leader should go by.
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tafolla-howe-govan



Joined: 20 Sep 2004
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Location: Good ole NC

PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a shame that most of the U.S. can't see through this man and his administration and their extremist view of the way the world should be. If the people here would just read and stop watching Fox News (Fair and Balanced Confused) and other corporate news channels and come to terms with the truth, maybe things would be different. I mean do people actually think that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hated our freedom Exclamation Question That is just complete nonsense, and I have never seen anything on the news that rebuts those accusations, but it is what this administration has crammed down our throats ever since the attacks. For us to truly be safe and not be threatened by any types of attacks whether they be chemical or nuclear, the root of the tension between us and them has to be addressed and fixed. I am absolutely terrified in these times, I really feel as if we are on the brink of a nuclear holocaust, I really hope I am wrong....
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:46 am    Post subject: And Speaking of Iraq, Sad News... Reply with quote

I was just advised that one of our very first customers, Wolf Weiss, died in Iraq. He was the first customer who bought a Diezel VH4 from this shop and was just an all-around sweetheart of a guy. This is really sad news as he had been emailing me from Iraq about getting back home and start playing music again.

He retired from the military service a while back and was working at the military bases as an accomplished tattoo artist, but after 9/11, I guess he felt it was a duty to go out and fight. I thought maybe he was in Kuwait working in some sort of a support role for the US military but he was apparently working as a security contractor in a combat role. Here's the letter from his wife:

http://www.wolfweiss.com/

My heart goes out to his family who had been here several times when Wolf came over to check out the gear in the shop. He was so excited about getting his music career going again but I guess it was in his blood to go over there and fight for what he believed in. May he rest in peace...
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bill®



Joined: 11 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carlo wrote:
In the case of the troop shooting the insurgent, if the marine in question is found guilty of violating rules of conduct, then he should face punishment. But I have to say I cannot stand in judgment of this young man, after what must have been brutal, terrifying days of urban conflict. This is surely what they call "what happens in wartime." It may not be morally defensible; but it is psychologically understandable. Frankly, I'm grateful for what this man, probably the same age as me I think, is doing with his fellows in unspeakably terrifying circumstances. Compare his action with Abu Ghraib, and you can see the difference. One a snap judgment in a furious battle context; the other a pre-meditated example of abuse and murder of prisoners in U.S. custody.


I am not saying it is unfathomable what this man did in this footage, but it was unconscionable. To see the tape is to know it as most definitely not a 'snap judgment in a furious battle context', particularly as this particular group of insurgents had already been engaged, defeated, received medical treatment, had their weapons confiscated, and left for pickup by American forces days earlier.
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