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Where does Guthrie's tone come from?
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Mr C.



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 146
Location: Not behind Tesco's any more but still in in Whitstable

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:41 am    Post subject: Where does Guthrie's tone come from? Reply with quote

hey guys, I keep hearing strings picks hair bands pedals etc , or is it the amps and guitars? as they are 99% of the sound,, if you want to say its all in the fingers,, thats cool,, but as GG once said to me, if I use a guitar from someone and his amp?? I will sound like me but with a rubbish guitar and his amp?
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rads



Joined: 17 May 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, amps and guitars are the tone source, but i also realize that even for amateur guitarist with a little knowledge on sound would have the tendency to have the same sound produced using different amps and guitar.
The fingers also have the tendency to produce the sound by compensating techniques executed.

As for guthrie, i believe he'll be more on compensating techniques executed on the fretboard, amps and guitars just make it better, better guitar better sound produced, better amp will do the same.

...cheers...
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guitar and the amp is the steak. Everything else is seasoning. The player is the chef. A lousy chef will still produce a bad meal with the best ingredients. You want to taste the meat, not the seasoning. You want to hear the woods of the guitar coming through the amp, not buzzy electronics. Guthrie is a master chef with some very choice ingredients. Wink
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Where does Guthries tone come from? Reply with quote

Mr C. wrote:
hey guys, I keep hearing strings picks hair bands pedals etc , or is it the amps and guitars? as they are 99% of the sound,, if you want to say its all in the fingers,, thats cool,, but as GG once said to me, if I use a guitar from someone and his amp?? I will sound like me but with a rubbish guitar and his amp?


Are you asking a question? It's not clear to me. As Master Po once recalled: "Quang-Jo once had a dream he was a butterfly. As a butterfly, his life was one of contentment and he knew none of the fears and anxieties he had known as Jo the man. When he awoke he did not know if he was Quang-Jo the man who had dreamt he was a butterfly or a butterfly who had imagined being Jo."
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Cass679



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexkhan wrote:
The guitar and the amp is the steak. Everything else is seasoning. The player is the chef. A lousy chef will still produce a bad meal with the best ingredients. You want to taste the meat, not the seasoning. You want to hear the woods of the guitar coming through the amp, not buzzy electronics. Guthrie is a master chef with some very choice ingredients. Wink


I must use that analogy Cool That is very cool Very Happy
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cass679 wrote:
alexkhan wrote:
The guitar and the amp is the steak. Everything else is seasoning. The player is the chef. A lousy chef will still produce a bad meal with the best ingredients. You want to taste the meat, not the seasoning. You want to hear the woods of the guitar coming through the amp, not buzzy electronics. Guthrie is a master chef with some very choice ingredients. Wink


I must use that analogy Cool That is very cool Very Happy


made me hungry ...

one could differentiate between "sound" and "tone", where "sound" would be the results of the hardware, and tone what the player does with it.

guthries sound: lotsa mids, not too much bass, pretty bright, dynamic response, not too gainy, etc ...

tone: take the sound, combine it with a very smooth and controlled pick attack, and an equally controlled but almost percussive, snappy legato, etc.

"touch" has a lot to do with it, how you make notes sustain by squeezing, bending and vibrating the string. vibrato defenitely affects tone. but the attack is what's most important. different pick attacks, finger pops, as well as how you make a sound note with the left hand. guthrie is pretty recognizeable when it comes to these things – and it's why i don't get his tone thru a cornford ...

we've been here before, haven't we?

.
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MissMisstreater



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed, your analogy is spot on

at the same time tho, a master chef cannot make a microwave meal taste like a gourmet feast

sure 90% of his sound comes from his fingers

but without that cornford and that suhr...well just listen to some of the pre erotic cakes release demos...ouch is all i can say

never neglect the quality of the ingredients, this is a love triangle
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, but if Guthrie sat in on a jam and had to pick up someone else's $500 axe (name your brand) and play through a $500 amp (name your brand), he will still sound better than most guys through expensive gear. This doesn't just apply to Guthrie. I've seen good players sound so much better with cheap gear than not-so-good players through boutique gear time and time again.

Thankfully, Guthrie plays gear that suits him best and that he's very comfortable with. He knows what works and what doesn't work for him without analyzing all the details. I really think it's more important to rely on one's own instincts than scientific analysis to decide what sounds and plays good. It's kind of like learning music theory - learn it and then forget about it when it's time to play.
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's true even with mortal players. many of my friends have a very distinct tone, "regardless" of gear. i've come to the conclusion it has A LOT to do with pick attack: angle, how much tip, how hard, fast etc ...

on the other hand, i know accomplished players who always sound kind of generic, where the hardware are more important.

.
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alexkhan



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumis wrote:
it's true even with mortal players. many of my friends have a very distinct tone, "regardless" of gear. i've come to the conclusion it has A LOT to do with pick attack: angle, how much tip, how hard, fast etc ...

on the other hand, i know accomplished players who always sound kind of generic, where the hardware are more important.

.


Yes, it's also very true that good or even great players can sound not-so-good or outright bad no matter what gear they play through. It really doesn't matter what gear they choose to play; the tone's just not in their fingers.
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olliewoodwright



Joined: 27 Jan 2009
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Location: South East

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MissMisstreater wrote:
Ed, your analogy is spot on

sure 90% of his sound comes from his fingers

but without that cornford and that suhr...well just listen to some of the pre erotic cakes release demos...ouch is all i can say


yeh rhode island shred *cringe* lol but guthrie's got way better since then it seems.

out of interest does anyone know guthrie's setup for the old EC demos?
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frankus



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read an interview with Stanley Clarke who was spotted by someone and convinced try out some different kit. He said it made his sound. So I guess it can be important.

Personally, I think music is more important than tone or production values, but that's just my opinion. Wink
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:
Personally, I think music is more important than tone or production values, but that's just my opinion. Wink


yeah? and what would that be?

.
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BIOS



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
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Location: Inside your Piano

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:

Personally, I think music is more important than tone or production values, but that's just my opinion. Wink


But frankus would you not agree that they should be one in the same? I mean consider a classical composition devoid of any timbral considerations. I think careful attention to tone is vital to any piece work dealing with sound. The tone is the soul of each note. Like the familiar voice of a friend or family member. I suppose because electronic instruments tone can be so easily manipulated there is a completely different culture surrounding it. It's alot more gratuitous perhaps. I mean take a violinist. One may wish for and dream to have the tone of a Stradivarius but this most likely will be out of their grasp. Thus when they hear this tone their appreciation for it is perhaps alot greater because of its elusive existence in terms of that person acquiring it. Whereas for the budding guitarist no tone is unachievable realistically if its just a question of hardware. By the same measure in a classical work their is a very definite sound that a player is trying to achieve stylistically so tone is a primary concern.

I would put tone in the same league as all other musical elements below pitch and rhythm. E.g dynamics and the manipulation of the beat. In other words the elements that make a piece truly musical. Truly human.

BIOS
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a listener couldn't care less if i used a pod xt or a cornford hurricane. and probably wouldn't hear muvh or any off a difference on a mixed recording.

i as a player though, hear and more importantly feel everything. that makes me create better or lesser music. that's where the important difference is.

this is at least true if we're talking about the difference between pau ferro or maple fingerboards, different ts-9 clones, v30s or governors, marshall jcm 900 or cornford hellcat. a WORLD of difference for me as a player, but marginal difference in the mix.

now, if we're comparing steve albini (big black, shellac), wes montgomery and fredrik thordendah (meshugga)l ... tone will obviously have to be discussed in terms of gear AND technique/touch.

.
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