Guthrie Govan Discussion

[alexkhan]

I agree that we don't need to disparage other great masters who have established themselves and set a standard and inspired players like Guthrie and the new generation of great players. I know for sure that Satch, Vai and Yngwie were all big influences and inspiration during Guthrie's formative years.

Musical taste is subjective, so I agree that we shouldn't get into denigrating anyone else on a forum, but at the same time, tastes are like opinions and people should be allowed to voice opinions on a forum such as this. As far as my comments about the current state of G3, it is an opinion but also a view that is increasingly shared by many. Also, it is a business. I should know now that I deal with artists about pay for the gigs and other logistics and things like that. They need to make money to support their families and maintain a certain standard of living duking it out in a very fickle business.

The artists are also very cognizant about their status amongst others and the competition, whether imagined or real, is very much there. It's very easy for us to think that these artists care only about the music and I'm sure music is what drives them, but reality very often doesn't allow that to be the case. We've all read enough of the G3 chronicles over the years that egos do get involved. Remember JS lashing out at EJ in an interview dotted with expletives about EJ's behavior and things like that during one of their first tours? I've also seen Vai take potshots at JS in interviews and it's apparent that although they remain good friends, the rivalry between the two has always been there and will remain so as long as the public views them as the the "top dogs".

I dunno. I've seen both Satch and Vai up-close half-a-dozen times over the years and with each time I see 'em or with each new album, the more and more I get bored and not really interested in what they're doing anymore. To me, they don't seem to be really progressing artistically or breaking any new ground. I gave up on Yngwie a long, long time ago. On the other hand, I will gladly snatch up anything new by Jeff Beck and Pat Metheny. And I love the fresh new ideas and sounds of players like Ron Thal, Mattias IA Eklundh, Joel Hoekstra and Scott Jones.

As I said, Satch and Vai are great players and I have fond memories of being one of their biggest fans. But to me, they just sort of stopped developing or taking things in new directions. I've been a big Jeff Beck and Pat Metheny fan just as long or longer but I've always felt that they have been able to break new ground and keep my interest, musically speaking. My tastes evolved over the years and I'd want the artists who I'm into to evolve as well. Sometimes their evolvement is in line with what I'm looking for and sometimes it's not. For me, that's what it boils down to. It's more of a personal taste issue and I, as a fan, can decide whether to stick with the artists by buying their albums and going to see them in concert or not.

In the end, they're all great players and this type of argument gets nowhere although I believe there are ways people can quantify these things to support whatever arguments they want to make, which they certainly have the right to do. I, for one, would love to see Guthrie be asked to join G3 on a tour. That'd be great. I'd be so happy for Guthrie. No one knows if and when it will ever happen, but I hope it does. It could be just the thing the G3 franchise needs to take it up a notch to the next level.
_________________
Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[Javi]

[stratoskier]

Hi again,
Ed, I completely agree that discussions like this belong in the forum. I love reading what everybody thinks about all these players and who they think is hot! In fact, it was in a thread like this (on Jemsite) that I first heard about Guthrie! And especially here, in the GG forum, I really respect everyone's opinions because (if I may say so) if you're a Guthrie fan, you've got pretty classy taste.

And (with some regret), I also have to agree with pretty much everything said in the earlier posts. There is definitely a new wave of cutting edge guitarists, and Guthrie is right in the pack. The stuff that Guthrie, Mattias and a few others are doing is what gets me most excited these days. Discovering these guys has put a whole new spark into my urge to play and polish my chops. That wouldn't have happened if I was only listening to my big stack of Vai and Satriani CDs.

Like I said, I'm just a little sensitive to the "old fart" syndrome. This is a little hard to admit, but I hit 50 a year ago, and I've got this unreasonable mega-fear of aging and what it's going to do to my playing. Suddenly I became aware of the fact that I wasn't the guitarist I wanted to be yet and it wasn't gonna be long before I started getting arthritis or something (LOL). So I started woodshedding like never before. I'm getting up at 3:30 every morning and working on a very regimented practice schedule: charting it all out and the whole works. And it's like this huge clock is ticking behind me and I've got to nail this stuff NOW or else... But this is totally worthwhile: the improvement and joy in my playing is greater than anything I've felt in the past.

So I guess I'm overly defensive about the other old guys. I feel this kinship with all those great players that have a few more lines in their face than the new power players. (Except for Keith Richards: too may lines in his face). Egads, this sounds like I'm in therapy. Somebody stop me now before I reveal anything else!

And oh yeah, I know you're right about G3 being a huge business venture. Since I came up in the 60s, I've still got illusions that all these guys (at least the ones I really like) are only in it for the higher meaning (art, love, and global peace, or something like that). But you're right in the thick of it business-wise, so I suspect you're right: the two things (the craft and the business) are inseparable. There goes another one of my pet illusions. Darn...

So keep up all the dialog. I'm listening!
Bert

[Javi]

I think it was a time when some people though that only Satriani and Vai and a very vey few other guitarists (like Van Halen, etc.) could come out with those innovator guitar ideas and put them to the rest of the people or the guitar community... We though they were like aliens or the new modern Mozarts. The rest belonged to the Jazz: that wasn't new... Jazz... So, They did have to do something similar of what Hendrix did in his days. They couldn't resurrect Hendrix to tell them what to do next. They wanted to be the new Hendrix themselves ; The resurrection of the innovatorS. The king of kings. They wanted to be remembered like the fastest players, the super guitar heroe. So, they had to innovate and provoque a collective reaction. But the truth is that a lot of people was already innovating and doing new things in their rooms at home; They had Hendrix hunged on the wall like inspiration and they weren't famous, but they felt that something more than music was coming out from those 6 strings and they though they could change the way to see and perceive the music... Just like Hendrix did... But this time was going to be collective: When Vai and Satch was making money, even with the non-guitarist people, other persons like Jason Becker, Greg Howe, Guthrie Govan or Tony MacAlpine among others were starting to brake into the scenary with wider horizons, looking beyond the mere speed and melody and adquiring ideas from the past too: Jazz and Classical, turning and melting into another bunch of concepts: like Shred, chops and legato. I'm not saying that G3 don't have these virtues or abilities. But these new people are going to highlight the new way to play the guitar, much much more challenging and provocative. I don't want to mention Allan Holdsworth. He is from another planet... At the moment, until he gets the nationality for this planet everybody is learning from him an/or adquiring some of his ideas. So, something is boiling in this underground community of mad guitarists that is going to provoque the slope of an era and the beginning of something very very exciting that a few records gave its name: THE GUITAR ON THE EDGE!!
_________________
Javi

[alexkhan]

Hey Bert, I think that "old fart" comment was meant in jest and wasn't intended to offend, but I can understand your sensitivity to it. I don't think music-playing is like a sport where musicians lose skill or chops like athletes lose speed, strength and other measurable form of ability. When you look at some of the greatest classicial and jazz musicians of the past and today, some were and are in their 60's and 70's. And some musicians and composers of the past actually hit their creative peaks in their 50's and 60's. Guthrie's best playing and creative output days may be 20 or 30 years from now, who knows? But yeah, I understand that you get to a point where you want to accomplish more things in life as time passes by. The important thing is to enjoy!
_________________
Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[alexkhan]

Hey Javi, I'm not sure I would lump Guthrie in with guys like Jason Becker, Tony MacAlpine, and Greg Howe. They've been around since the 80's during the heydays of shred. MacAlpine came around just a year or two after Yngwie's "Rising Force", so sad to say, he's somewhat of an old-timer compared to the likes of Guthrie, Ron Thal, Mattias, etc. Not that Guthrie is so much younger than these guys back from the 80's, but I think new up and coming artists need more time now to develop their overall musicality and own style and voice.

I'm sure Guthrie's chops were just as mind-boggling 15 years ago as it is now. Yngwie and Steve Vai had both said that their fastest playing days were when they were like 16 or 17. We all know that once you get to a certain level of technical proficiency, another two years aren't going to make you 50% faster or whatever. I'm sure there are a bunch of teens and early-20's guys now who have the chops comparable to that of someone like Guthrie and other masters. But it takes time to come up with one's own voice, style, character and these other musical intangibles that set you apart from others.

I think it's becoming harder and harder to do that now because there are so many technically accomplished guitarists out there. In a way, I feel that Yngwie, Satch and Vai's success had a lot to do with their timing. There was nobody else doing what they were doing with so much technical proficiency while having musicality and their own unique styles. Those three really stretched the envelope and also reached the non-guitar-playing mainstream that was open to instrumental guitar music at that particular point in time. The ones who came afterwards or riding on their coattails simply couldn't come up with something original enough or that had mainstream appeal like that of Satch and Vai although they had as much or more chops than Satch and Vai.

I look at the history since the heydays of Yngwie, Satch, and Vai (mid-to-late 80's) and it's obvious that, at least Satch and Vai, firmly held their position of popularity (even as the entire shred thing died down and got overtaken by Grunge and Nu-Metal, etc.) and that their status within the community of shred and technical playing enthusiasts was actually further strengthened through savvy marketing as well as being able to continually writing memorable instrumental tunes.

In a way, Satch and Vai shrewdly took advantage of the shred excess that was swirling around them which was doomed by the Grunge movement in the mainstream and consolidated their position as the Kings of Shred. Sure Satch and Vai suffered, too, during the rise of Nirvana, Soundgarden, Smashing Pumpkins, Alice in Chains, etc., but their competition was just completely wiped out. That made it easier for them to dominate what has become a niche market - rock guitar instrumental music. Everyone else was thrown out into the fringes to scavenge amongst the scattered die-hard shred freaks and obscure underground fusion circles.

As far as the mainstream is concerned, Dream Theater and Petrucci were the only band and guitarist that found their own niche and grew it to where it became somewhat respectable and substantial. And they were no threat to Satch and Vai - just a different type of thing comfortably existing in its own little ecosphere. I thought Buckethead could make a run and possibly become an important new voice after I first heard "Praxis: Transmutation" in '92 and I followed him closely for over a decade but he just hasn't been able to break out and fulfill the promise of that landmark album. He's a very good player and he has visited this shop a few times and I hung out with him, but he seems content in his own little world doing really weird stuff that's not anything close to mainstream. Well, it's his choice...

I guess what I'm getting at is that all this has run its course and time seems ripe for something new and fresh. And amazing chops and technique will have to take a backseat to musical substance and character for this kind of music to have any chance of getting a footing in the overall music scene again. Music simply has to come first and the great new techniques of players like Guthrie and company have to serve as a tool to produce some fresh new compelling sounds and compositions. Personally, I believe that's all there is to it. Chops can't overwhelm the music. If the music's good and we are hearing something different, new and also memorable, it'll do fairly well. I'm pretty optimistic about where it's all heading now to tell you the truth. The future looks pretty exciting.
_________________
Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[stratoskier]

Hey Guys,
I know the "old fart" quip was meant in jest, but I do worry about losing speed and accuracy as the fingers stiffen up. I should hunt around for some more info on that. I do have some hyper-extension finger injuries from ski racing wrecks that bug me, but I suppose I can't blame that on age. I did start wearing stiff finger supports for skiing a couple of years ago just so I won't do any more damage. Am I off-topic enough yet?

Back to the point... I think it is true that for most artists doing the kind of music we're interested in, they start to lose the creative fire as they age. It's hard on the psyche to continually challenge yourself and keep pushing the comfort envelope, and it seems like a lot of artists mellow out so much they get downright boring. Hate to say it, but I always think of Clapton that way. He's still doing some great stuff (his vintage blues work is cool), but he's not breaking new ground like he did with Cream. And on the flip side is Jeff Beck, who (I agree with you) is never content to do a rerun of his last effort. The most defining moment in my entire musical "career" was the first time I heard "Morning Dew" off Beck's Truth album. Scary. So I'll always pay attention to what he does.

Satch and Vai? We'll see where they go. Like I said, I'll hang in there with them for the long run just because I respect them so much and they've given me a lot of inspiration over the years. And, oh yeah, 'cause they're old farts too.
Bert

[DonGa]

[stratoskier]

Hey DonGa,
I apologize for sounding offended. You see, I actually understood exactly what you were saying and knew you meant it in jest. But, like I said above, I've got this irrational fear that age itself causes one to lose their creative juices (and maybe a few other juices, too).

So, my buttocks are officially unclenched. Uh-oh... oops.. excuse me...
Bert

[frankus]

In my role as forum moderator I like to imagine myself riding around on my Goldy brown Chopper type motorbike as Officer Frankus "Ponch" Poncherello, humming the theme tune to CHiPs - dadum da da dah.. and eating Nachos from one of the many fine eating establishments along the freeway in my cult-tv-show-addled brain. Occassionally I get to rag Jon (Officer Baker) about his hang up with the cutie working in the engine shop..

Basically, life is good, seeing as I've an audience of one, I've no real fear of NBC pulling the plug. These days the forums are so civilised I've not had to get into a chase or lock a channel. It'd be great if occasionally you guys could wear cowboy hats and red neckerchiefs, say hold up a bank in a light brown sedan or a dark green pickup with juiced up suspension.. I don't get down to the beach enough.. heck if you drive across a beach volleyball match, I'm going to have to stop and get some numbers from err witnesses.. I'll let you get away till later in the episode.

I guess the moral of this weeks episode is: if you troll on my turf, I will bore everyone in an abstract fashion... now get outta here and keep yer nose clean .. ciao

... da dum da da dah... vrrmmm
_________________
Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[alexkhan]