Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:32 am Post subject: The More That I'm in the Gear Biz, the More I Realize...
That it really is in the hands of the player for one's tone. A good case in point is how many people who love Guthrie's tone and then they plug into the Cornford Hellcat and expect to sound just like him. NOT! People are very surprised by how different it sounds from their expectations based on what they've seen or heard of his playing.
I see it day in and day out. It's amazing how good one particular amp can sound in the hands of the right player and not good at all in the hands of another - and this is assuming that both players are of around equal skill. And some really good players just plain sound bad no matter what they plug into. I still can't figure that out. Is it the structure of their bones in the hands that are holding the guitar? Something in the flesh that makes them sound bad (dull, thin, harsh, whatever) no matter what they play?
Why does someone with a Strat playing through a bright 70's-style Marshall clones sound warm and airy and then a guy with a 335 sound harsh and brittle through a Dumble-style amp? It should be the other way around by common reasoning. It really is a pretty weird thing to observe. I've even asked the people what pick they're using since that's the point of contact, but they'd all use standard picks and there's no pattern as to why some guys sound good no matter what and some guys make you cringe all the time.
And the higher-end amps like Cornfords, Diezels, CAA OD-100's, VHT's, Bad Cats, etc. won't make you sound better just by plugging into them. In fact, these kind of amps can make you sound worse if your chops and touch aren't up to snuff. They amplify every little nuance of your playing. Yes, they all have different tonal and voicing characteristics, but amps like these translate every little detail of your playing: attack, left-hand movements, sustain, release, bends, hammer-ons and pull-offs, dynamics, touch, etc.
Tone is in your mind and in your fingers - not the gear. I just can't emphasize that enough. The gear - especially the amp - only translates what's coming out of your head and through your fingers. You still need good gear that will best complement your own style of playing, but that's all a piece of gear can do: bring out what you put out. Garbage in, garbage out. Beatuy in, beauty out... _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
did you test it with the same guitars on the same amp?
An amp does not make the sound itselfs.
I think it is a chain, not only fingers, but fingers(if you want to be more specific, it's not only fingers but the whole arm-shoulder-neck chain)+guitar+amp.
You've hit the nail on the head with this thread, Ed. Although with what you said about those amplifiers picking up every nuance, I can't help but think that with my little 10 watt marshall, and similar not-too-great amplifiers, that I am losing some of my tone; i.e instead of picking up on the nuances, the sound gets filtered through and 'processed'.
I don't know why but I never like the sound of my amp played with gain/distortion. I don't know whether it is the amp, or whether it is pschological from me playing so much on my classical guitar and am too used to a clean sound; but I never seem to be able to get a distorted/over-driven/high-gain etc. amp setting which I like ...
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:17 am Post subject:
Ogami musashi wrote:
did you test it with the same guitars on the same amp?
An amp does not make the sound itselfs.
I think it is a chain, not only fingers, but fingers(if you want to be more specific, it's not only fingers but the whole arm-shoulder-neck chain)+guitar+amp.
Oh, yes - same guitar, same pick, same cable, same amp, same cabinet but different guys. I've been seeing this here for over 2 years now. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:19 am Post subject:
James W wrote:
You've hit the nail on the head with this thread, Ed. Although with what you said about those amplifiers picking up every nuance, I can't help but think that with my little 10 watt marshall, and similar not-too-great amplifiers, that I am losing some of my tone; i.e instead of picking up on the nuances, the sound gets filtered through and 'processed'.
I don't know why but I never like the sound of my amp played with gain/distortion. I don't know whether it is the amp, or whether it is pschological from me playing so much on my classical guitar and am too used to a clean sound; but I never seem to be able to get a distorted/over-driven/high-gain etc. amp setting which I like ...
... however I am some what of a perfectionist
... Love and snuggles, James XXX
That's the point of fine tube amps - to amplify the details and nuances of your playing, but do it with character, warmth, feel, musicality. When you find the right amp that does exactly what you want it to do for your own style, there's nothing quite like it. My peeve is with guys who think good amps are going to make them sound better without any effort. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:20 am Post subject:
Carlo wrote:
The best-made amps are the ones that expose your true potential and ability. I still remember my first experience with a tube amp
Believe me, a lot of the amps I carry at the shop are rather scary to play! _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Having had a string of very loud amps... I've probably spent the last 6 years playing more without an amp most of the time.. I still managed to get a compliment on my tone last time I went out and played. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
It's not only in the hands, but so much comes from the soul.
I will never forget seeing Warren Haynes (Gov't Mule/Allmans) and the opening act had no backline, so the guitarist used Warren's Soldano Setup with his guitar. He didn't touch a single knob and he sounded AWFUL!!!!. Warren walks out and it's Angel's Flying from the Speakers.
I have a friend who has always bought the amp/guitar/effects his favorite players use (namely trying to cop Greg Howe). The guy has spent thousands on trying to sound like someone else. Why?? I am a firm believer that no matter what you try, you will never sound like them or as good as the original, but you can make something sound personal if you spend the time developing your own thing. Sure, Guthrie has a tiny sprinkling of the Vai influence here and there, but I've not heard anyone who sounds like Guthrie and his tone is simply amazing.
Make your own statement. Find your own footprints or, like the amazing Mattias Eklund says "grow your own moustache"...........
The reason Guthrie sounds so damn good all the time is that he has TALENT and has worked his ass off to become the player he is. You don't become that good on talent alone and you certainly won't sound like your favorite player because you are NOT them. I truely respect anyone who does his/her own thing - no matter what it is.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject:
shredizalive wrote:
It's not only in the hands, but so much comes from the soul.
I will never forget seeing Warren Haynes (Gov't Mule/Allmans) and the opening act had no backline, so the guitarist used Warren's Soldano Setup with his guitar. He didn't touch a single knob and he sounded AWFUL!!!!. Warren walks out and it's Angel's Flying from the Speakers.
I have a friend who has always bought the amp/guitar/effects his favorite players use (namely trying to cop Greg Howe). The guy has spent thousands on trying to sound like someone else. Why?? I am a firm believer that no matter what you try, you will never sound like them or as good as the original, but you can make something sound personal if you spend the time developing your own thing. Sure, Guthrie has a tiny sprinkling of the Vai influence here and there, but I've not heard anyone who sounds like Guthrie and his tone is simply amazing.
Make your own statement. Find your own footprints or, like the amazing Mattias Eklund says "grow your own moustache"...........
The reason Guthrie sounds so damn good all the time is that he has TALENT and has worked his ass off to become the player he is. You don't become that good on talent alone and you certainly won't sound like your favorite player because you are NOT them. I truely respect anyone who does his/her own thing - no matter what it is.
You bring up a good point. Well, when we say "the hands", we're talking about that person - whatever that player brings out of himself. It really is more from the mind and the soul. The mind has spent countless hours over the years analyzing what makes for a good tone. It could be the angle of the pick attack, how much force you put into the strings, how much pressure you apply on the strings with your left hand, etc. And ultimately, what your mind tells your fingers to do is tempered by what you feel in your heart and soul. So yes, they are all connected. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Seen/heard some guys sound extremely poor through Diezels lately. Not at all impressed by neither the players nor the amps. For an amp that expensive, you'd figure it should sound kinda nice at least
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:22 pm Post subject:
Edovinus wrote:
Seen/heard some guys sound extremely poor through Diezels lately. Not at all impressed by neither the players nor the amps. For an amp that expensive, you'd figure it should sound kinda nice at least
It's a very common theme that I observe here all the time. It really is the player you're listening to, not so much the amps. An amp is that: an amplifier - something that amplifies a player's playing. When you get into the range of high-end amps like Cornford, Diezel, CAA, Soldano, VHT, Bogner, etc., it's all about finding which one works best for your style of playing. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
It's not the amp, it's the user. Believe me, Larry Carlton sounds like Larry Carlton no matter what he plays through, as does Vai, Satriani, Halen, Henderson, Holdsworth. Sure, they use specific 'key' items in their rigs to get their sound, but you must admit, as do I, that alot of times the gear you use is so much more about 'you' the player, and not so much the audience. They won't know if your using an exact specific type of tube or battery in your pedal to get your 'tone'. Take for instance Eric Johnson. A giant in the tone dept, but if you've ever seen him live, you'd realize that you as the listener wouldn't be able to tell the difference if he was using George L's cables vrs. Monster or Eveready vs. Duracell batteries, but HE can tell due to his own indiosyncratic ideals.
This brings to the point that no matter what type of effect, amp, cable, string or guitar you use, you will still sound like YOU. Sure, a great hand made boutique amp will sound amazing, but only in the HANDS of the right player. I played a TON of different boutique amps and found that alot of them are SO dependent on the style of player using them.
I think that saying an amp like Deizel is not impressive is really not giving the amp a chance. Seriously, check one out for yourself....it might work for you, or it might not, but the fact of the matter is, these amps are made with specific ideas in mind and they reflect the TRUE tone of the player using them and this is why so many players don't sound so great when using them, it's the harsh reality that so many players have lousy tone. This is not to insult anyone, but when we look at certain key figures
for great tone examples, they are few and far between.
I hope this wasn't too long-winded. This forum is really great and the contributions are really interesting. Having WAY too much fun reading.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:33 am Post subject:
shredizalive wrote:
It's not the amp, it's the user. Believe me, Larry Carlton sounds like Larry Carlton no matter what he plays through, as does Vai, Satriani, Halen, Henderson, Holdsworth. Sure, they use specific 'key' items in their rigs to get their sound, but you must admit, as do I, that alot of times the gear you use is so much more about 'you' the player, and not so much the audience. They won't know if your using an exact specific type of tube or battery in your pedal to get your 'tone'. Take for instance Eric Johnson. A giant in the tone dept, but if you've ever seen him live, you'd realize that you as the listener wouldn't be able to tell the difference if he was using George L's cables vrs. Monster or Eveready vs. Duracell batteries, but HE can tell due to his own indiosyncratic ideals.
This brings to the point that no matter what type of effect, amp, cable, string or guitar you use, you will still sound like YOU. Sure, a great hand made boutique amp will sound amazing, but only in the HANDS of the right player. I played a TON of different boutique amps and found that alot of them are SO dependent on the style of player using them.
I think that saying an amp like Deizel is not impressive is really not giving the amp a chance. Seriously, check one out for yourself....it might work for you, or it might not, but the fact of the matter is, these amps are made with specific ideas in mind and they reflect the TRUE tone of the player using them and this is why so many players don't sound so great when using them, it's the harsh reality that so many players have lousy tone. This is not to insult anyone, but when we look at certain key figures
for great tone examples, they are few and far between.
I hope this wasn't too long-winded. This forum is really great and the contributions are really interesting. Having WAY too much fun reading.
You got it right, bro. Ultimately, the tone's in the player. IMHO, at least 80%, as much as 90%. Great players like Guthrie, Jeff Beck, etc. will sound better with a Squier through a cheap Peavey or a Crate than most players with boutique gear.
Personally, at the shop, I don't like to deal with inexperienced players who only read stuff on the Internet and think that getting these expensive amps will make them sound so much better. That just isn't the case and I have a hard time explaining that to people at times. Sometimes I just feel like telling them, "You know, you should just go to Guitar Center and get a Marshall or a Fender. They'll serve you well for the next 5~10 years, maybe longer..."
People who get into boutique gear should already have a very good idea of what kind of sound they want to get. When people ask me, "I'm trying to get that EVH brown sound. What do you recommend?", I feel like telling them, "We don't have it here. Go look somewhere else." and just get it over with. That's just one example but you can imagine what I deal with on a regular basis here. It's a really tough job. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
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