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The way we practise

 
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:36 am    Post subject: The way we practise Reply with quote

I was thinking the other day, whilst watching an amazing clip of Guthrie improvising away, how practising much have had an effect on his ability to do this...


Guthrie has always said that he has never kept slavishly to any practise regime... and therefore presumably has practised spontaneously, on whatever he feels like, just using his ear a great deal to play what he hears etc... and Guthrie is a great, nay, scratch that, amazing improviser...

Whereas those who profess to having a detailed plan to their practise (e.g Vai, Petrucci) never do (and presumably are not so great at it) improvise... possibly this was exacerbted by their regimented, unspontaneous practise regime?


Just a thought.

J
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markmcg



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: The way we practise Reply with quote

James W wrote:

Guthrie has always said that he has never kept slavishly to any practise regime... and therefore presumably has practised spontaneously, on whatever he feels like, just using his ear a great deal to play what he hears etc... and Guthrie is a great, nay, scratch that, amazing improviser...

Whereas those who profess to having a detailed plan to their practise (e.g Vai, Petrucci) never do (and presumably are not so great at it) improvise... possibly this was exacerbted by their regimented, unspontaneous practise regime?


Just a thought.

J


For me it has to do with context.

Mr Govan excels at improvisation I would say due to his playing in a Jazz/Fusion context which is heavily improv based music. But 'Improvisation' is not limited to those genres, it's just 'going off on one' spontaneously no matter the genre Wink.

As such I disagree with thoughts that Vai, Petrucci etc. do not or can not improvise. Vai, former Zappa guitarist, not able to improvise? Wink

I agree though that many people may concentrate too much on perfecting their technical ability and neglect the act of actually letting go and just playing without thinking. We practice over and over so that we CAN break free Smile.
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: The way we practise Reply with quote

markmcg wrote:
As such I disagree with thoughts that Vai, Petrucci etc. do not or can not improvise. Vai, former Zappa guitarist, not able to improvise? Wink


Hmmm... I have a live DVD of Vai... he barely improvises... the songs sound almost exactly the same as they do on the record! Ditto Petrucci...


J
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit like the Greek method of deduction, called barbaras:

Fish live in the sea
Sharks live in the sea
A shark is a fish..

Now try it for submarines, Jac Cousteau, kelp and coral..

Basically your logic moves in one direction and could be flawed.

I'd say being in Zappa's band required a great degree of musicality, but not improvisation.. Zappa fined the band for getting notes wrong in rehearsal, so the story goes.. playing stuff sped up, slowed down in odd time signatures sure.. but cutting loose on a tune? That was Zappa's responsibility.

There's loads of sides to playing guitar: inprov, interpretation, economy, tone etc.. Improv is okay, but it isn't everything.. if Vai composes a tune and plays that tune and it doesn't vary it kinda indicates he takes the notes he plays rather seriously... Satch might know the modes to use for a passage and improv in a framework..

Emily Remler said that for most mortals 10% of improv is really making things up, the rest is playing with licks you already know.. hence why Vais tunes have so many Zappa-esque passages in them. If you want it really nailed home, transcribe Giant Steps by Coltrane.. and at the risk of being lynched by Jazz High Priests, I bet you'll spot him using the same licks in different combination..

I think it's good to appreciate all the aspects of playing guitar, so Michaelangelo has his place as does Malmstein and Charlie Christian, it's all good.. finding what is good about it, is the key.. and taking that back to your own playing IMO Wink
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alexkhan



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: The way we practise Reply with quote

James W wrote:
markmcg wrote:
As such I disagree with thoughts that Vai, Petrucci etc. do not or can not improvise. Vai, former Zappa guitarist, not able to improvise? Wink


Hmmm... I have a live DVD of Vai... he barely improvises... the songs sound almost exactly the same as they do on the record! Ditto Petrucci...


J


I've seen Vai live 3 times, once about 5 feet away from him on the first row. He plays the solos about 99% to the letter of the originals. No, he doesn't improvise. And you see the G3 jams and I've seen him on other jams and clips of him warming up and he's not really improvising. It's one thing to just noodle over generic backing tracks at a sound check and another to really improvise on a tune in front of a live audience. Maybe Vai is a good improvisor - all I know is that I haven't seen him do it yet on the live shows and on the videos. Yes, ditto Petrucci...

They are part of that regimented group of players who work out their solos note for note and know exactly what scales and patterns to play over what chords and progressions. They're not the type who would call it playing over changes. That's what the jazz cats would call it. The rock guys say playing over progressions. There's a lot more elasticity in jazz changes be it forms of more chords in a given bar with more voice-leading modulations while rock progressions are pretty stiff and tend to be static in its key center.

Guthrie truly studied jazz and loves players like Wes, Benson, Metheny, and Scofield as well as other jazz greats who aren't guitar players. He really absorbed them and deeply understands the mechanics, the theory, and the feel that is needed to improvise. And Guthrie deeply absorbed other African-American musical forms like the blues, R&B, and funk, etc. as well. Perhaps these kinds of influences make up less than 50% of all that Guthrie does, but it is a significant part. I don't hear any of that kind of influence in Vai or Petrucci's playing. Nada... I agree that they do sound regimented. They do sound like guys who practiced 10 hours a day in a college course sort of a manner because that's what they did. They're great players, superb musicians and very good writers, but to me, I don't sense the freedom in their playing that I hear and feel in Guthrie's playing. Guthrie is still more rock than jazz, but he's absorbed and incorporated jazz more deeply than any rock player I've ever heard or seen.

I do think how you practice matters. Guthrie talks about the importance of it being fun. He never looked it as some military drill or crash studying for a college exam. My guess is that he studied theory and looked at all the angles, but he spent more time actually applying what he learned out on gigs and jams rather than playing it by rote over and over again locked away in his bedroom. Vai and Petrucci have both published articles about their 10-hour practice regimens. You know, I admire their tenacity and their dedication to be so disciplined to have studied and practiced like that during their formative years, but we know why they sound like the way do now. It's not to say they sound bad because they sound fine and they're great talented players, but their clinical approach is, at least to my ears, quite evident in their playing. I remember reading those Vai and Petrucci "curriculums" and I just said, "No, I'm not going to practice the guitar like that. I went through those kinds of routines on the high school football team and in preparing for exams in college. NO THANK YOU!"
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOO thanks Ed, I think you said it much more eloquently than yours trully Wink

... I think perhaps a few boundries in your practising is okay; i.e making sure you spend an equal amount of time practising legato (say an hour) as picking, but if you measure it down to the minute, I think it just gets silly...


J
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shredrulez
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed, once again, you hit the nail on its proverbial head. i've seen vai a few times myself and i was quite disappointed that he played everything exactly like they were on the records. yngwie is a better improvisor than vai is. rock guys don't really improvise. for them, it's really about rearranging the patterns within a given scale. pretty boring stuff! Mad
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plattypuss



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Vai doesn't seem to improvise that much but I have seen many a video and listned to many a song of Petrucci improvising - he is good but isn't quite in the same league as Mr. Govan.
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adrianclark



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: The way we practise Reply with quote

James W wrote:
Hmmm... I have a live DVD of Vai... he barely improvises... the songs sound almost exactly the same as they do on the record! Ditto Petrucci...


I saw Vai on the G3 tour years ago, and although he played most parts the same as the records (seeing as the records are mostly made up of 'written' parts anyway) there were several sections where he stretched out. Were they improvised? Well, unless you saw every gig and rehearsal, you'd never know. I suspect he was improvising at least in part, just not in the tedious 'jam band' sense.

I know he doesn't consider himself to be a great improviser, but he certainly *can*... with Zappa, he had at least one extended solo every night, usually in 'Stevie's Spanking'.


Adrian
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adrianclark



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shredrulez wrote:
for them, it's really about rearranging the patterns within a given scale.


... which is improvising.

The tonal palette may be smaller, but that doesn't make any odds. Rearranging any musical material on the fly is improvisation.


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markmcg



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This all depends on what you as an individual consider Improvisation to be.

Personally for me it covers spontaneous expression in a musical context, be that phrases made up on the spot, using licks embedded in the subconcious or not, playing changes, playing over a simple vamp, falling to your knees and pinging the strings against the pickup, smashing the guitar into the amp etc.

My point was that I disagree with the assumption that if someone studies with a regimented practice regime they will have somehow restricted their improvisational ability.

Improv will be part of any decent practice time and such regimes are used by some, who feel they need it, to perfect technique so they can let loose, allowing them to express what the wish/feel.

Everyone is different and as such practice differently, in fact did Coltrane not practice 8 - 12 hours a day?
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alexkhan



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the question is how one practices and in what contexts. I'd like to think that Guthrie also practiced almost every waking minute during his formative years (or 8~12 hours per day). Pat Metheny also mentioned that from the ages for 12 to 15 or so, he was practicing 12 hours a day. It's about how and what you practice. One can just play scales, exercises, arpeggios, licks and patterns for that many hours a day to the drone of a metronome and one can play just as many hours jamming with better musicians and playing along with records, etc. For me, it's easy to tell apart the former from the latter. I see serious players day-in and day-out and you know the ones who are playing out with bands and ones who are mainly practicing alone in their bedrooms. Huge difference...

Practicing alone is important as I'm sure Guthrie, Coltrane, McLaughlin, Miles, Holdsworth, Clapton, Jimi, Jeff Beck and many other put in countless hours doing exactly that. But I think they put things in a larger perspective of how to apply what they're learning in a more musical context of playing along with other instrumentalists and as part of a group. Mainly, I think they really jammed a lot with better improvisors. The old saying is true: you learn a lot more from a two-hour gig playing with better musicians than practicing alone in your bedroom for two months. You learn to be more fluid, you learn to swing, you learn to groove, play in and out of pocket, you learn to anticipate, you learn to really listen to what other players are doing. After all, music is ultimately a listening art form. It's also a communal kind of thing. Learning to communicate with other musicians is what it's all about in the end.

As for improvisation, we all do it, but I wouldn't say I'm improvising when I'm playing known patterns and licks without giving that any thought while I'm watching TV on a sofa. When I pick up a guitar to test it or an amp and play various scale patterns and runs, I wouldn't call it improvising although, technically, it can be viewed as rearranging musical material on the fly. Certainly, there are many levels to what we'd call the art of improvisation.

I like to think that improvisation is really about taking chances and trying to play something that you've never played before - composing and playing those musical ideas on the fly. Jazz musicians and really advanced improvisors talk about "spontaneous composition". It's more than just rearranging patterns, scales, chord shapes, etc. It's about communicating what you feel and telling a story through spontaneous composition, maintaining the true spirit of the tune on hand. It's an extremely creative endeavor and also an extremely difficult discipline as you get more and more advanced at it. Ultimately, it's about playing through advanced changes with a multitude of chord progressions flying by, extended chord voicings - not just major and minor chords, odd and shifting time signatures, changes in tempo and mood, etc... All these things to navigate through and still create a new "composition" on the fly and tell a story with your playing...

Improvisation is one of the most difficult disciplines in the world I could think of. To be good at it, it's not only about having technical control, but mind control. Ultimately, mind control is not good enough. The greatest improvisors don't want to think. They don't go, "Okay, here comes a tricky change with a G#11b5 with a modulation to the key of Bb happening right afterwards and a time sig change from 7/8 to 5/4. Now what do I play?" If you're thinking these things out in advance, it probably isn't "true" improvisation. The great ones say that on their best nights, they're free from the constraints of thought and what goes in their heads. I'm talking about people like Keith Jarrett, Sonny Rollins, Wayne Shorter, Wynton Marsalis, Herbie Hancock, Pat Metheny...

Yeah, even Coltrane resorted to patterns and recyclable licks at times, but those things are like words and idioms in spoken langauges. Theory is essentially like grammar. It's what one does with it to create and construct meaningful forms of communication that matters. Everyone's got their patterns and licks that they'll re-use over and over again in their solos and improvisations. Guthrie certainly does. Pat Metheny certainly does. Within a jazz context, I know Guthrie doesn't even dare to compare himself to someone like Metheny. What someone like Metheny is doing is at a whole different level.

But then, we all improvise - even if we're not musicians. Everybody improvises through their day at work or at play. So there are many ways to define improvisation. As far as what we're talking about in musical terms, there are also many levels of it and some artists definitely do it better than others. Defining what is "true" improvisation is a hard thing to do. I've tasted it a bit a few times in some jam sessions that went off really well and it's easy to understand why some artists have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of it.

As for Steve Vai, the following video clip of him noodling (or should I say, improvising? Wink ) during a soundcheck from '97 is the most I've seen of him just letting loose and not playing something all worked out in advance. It's kinda fun here and there but isn't very interesting from a musical standpoint. I wouldn't consider this "true" improvisation. I'd like to see him do it but my thoughts are that it's not what really interests him. He pretty much does the same stuff on the G3 and trade show jam sessions as well from what I remember, so I'm guessing that this is about all he has to offer in this realm.

http://www.online-discussion.com/GuthrieGovan/Photos/Vai_Sound_Check_Video_Clip.mov
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M@



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that clip Ed.

My belief is that Composition stems from Improvisation, which leads to further Composition, just like a "Virtous Circle" - Bach being a good example.

Regarding Mr Vai, I would say that most of his solos on his CD's are a mix of improvised and composed (using his set of melodic and harmonic tools available to him at the moment, as we all do), and that he tries to retain the the general form during live shows as a lot of his fans expect that. I think without some kind of structure, the live gigs would be a complete mess. I much prefer that than hearing someone like Shawn Lane go off on a psuedo and aimless hippy jazz trip. It kind of appealed to me when I was younger, but the yawn factor soon rises...

Joe Pass, Coltrane, Davis et al all had their "bag of tricks"; Guthrie, Vai, Satriani et al also have their own licks and tricks.

Just my opinion...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how many people really get to improvise their solos at a gig? i sure wish i could do that once in a while. but y'er typical bar or covers gig audience doesn't want to hear it. they want to hear it note-for-note of what they heard before. the players and artists who can improvise is a tiny fraction of the musicians out there. mainly jazz, obviously. i can't play in a jazz setting to save my life, but i do like to improvise over rock and blues progressions on jams and stuff. as ed said, it's best to improve when you play with guys who are better than you, but the live music scene is dead. Sad where do i go to find people like that and will they let me sit in?

these days you can jam along endlessly to machines and computers but where does that take you compared to playing with real musicians? it's so friggin' hard to just arrange a jam session with some buddies.

but as far as the subject of this thread and what's been posted so far, there are the studied and regimented types and there are those who really go out and really play for the sake of playing. gg strikes me as someone who's gone out and played as much as he can as well as practicing his ass off at home but having fun doing so jamming along to records. gg doesn't sound like he practiced scales for 2 hours, then arpeggios for 1 hour, then comping for 1 hour, then 2-hand technique for half-hour, then funk strumming for half-hour, then the blues for 1 hour, etc. but i agree with james and ed here that guys like vai and petrucci sound like they took took that exact approach.

some guys sound studied, rigorous and academic. some sound like it all came naturally even though they worked at it real hard like anyone else. they just don't sound stiff and machine-like.

as for vai, i dunno. i lost interest in him ages ago. the last album of his i got was fire garden, which i kinda liked but it was right around then that i said that he doesn't really do anything for me anymore. i've seen vai live since his alcatrazz days. didn't get to see him with zappa but i've seen him live at least 10 times. he never struck me as even a decent improvisor. yngwie is a much better improvisor than vai, imo. petrucci? i've seen dt live 6 times. there's no real improv going on there. dazzling stuff, but it's like, 'hey, look what we can do. betcha can't do THAT!' their shows are more like a musical circus of them showing off what they can do. after a while i decided i'd had enough. personally, i'd much rather listen to lane and his pseudo hippy jazz than vai or petrucci. much prefer greg howe over vai or petrucci as well. ditto for garsed. those cats truly improvise.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was well and truly surprised yesterday, while talking to Guthrie about the local jam night, someone mentioned that it was all 12 bar, and he said that was the way it would have to be... how many guitarists are going to turn up to improvise over Giant Steps..

I kinda mentioned that my teacher had transcribed it and found it contained all the same licks in it. Guthrie chuckled and alledged that Coltrane spent 3 months in his room figuring out the licks to play over Giant Steps before walking into a session and chucking the tune at the feet of the other musicians.. it's not very charitable.. and implies a bit of an insecurity (don's asbestos pants Wink)

Two thoughts sprung to mind: 1) Iocaine Powder (see Princess Bride) ... 2) The Poison Tree (See songs of innocence and experience)

I spent years learning to improvise using theory, but at the end of the day improvisation comes from knowing the tune you're playing over (if it's a standard) and knowing how you want to take liberties with it. Using this measure I reckon Vai can improvise, as he wrote the tunes and is exacting enough to have tried most variations on the theme before penning his tune. The fact that he doesn't is his perogative.

Improvising over a new composition, I class as jamming, here you take more knocks and are prepared to make more pratfalls. I spend most of my life jamming Wink.. I think Scott Henderson said he does the same, but really practicing tunes is going to make you less likely to take risks, but you'll probably be a more polished performer.

6 of one, half a dozen of the other Wink
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