In my opinion, another thing, besides velocity, or dynamics, that separates musical fast players from the mechanical-sounding ones is 'passion'.
I can usually hear it in people's sound; not because of their equipment, but their attack of the notes. This goes for Guthrie and Lane too. Although I've also heard mechanical Lane stuff, wich I liked less. I heard it in that clip I put on this board a while ago, the beginning of that 'Sneaky Petes' video; at certain moments I really loved that note attack. I liked that ultra-speed licks a bit less.. And I doublt if anyone has ever measured those like in that video. Sounds like 5000 notes per second if you know what I mean.
I can also hear this kind of passion in Malmsteen's notes. Sure, he should cut it out with the obvious scale/mode running that we know by know, but his 'feel' and vibrato, the passion, really stands out. I mean, I just LOVE Malmsteen's vibrato!!! I never heard anything like it.
In the end, the spead measuring is just stupid in my opinion. I mean, a three note per string pattern repeated over several adjecent strings is way easier then some serious string skipping lick that has no steady amount of notes per string and it usually sounds more interesting too. The cool thing is that I've seen Guthrie do some of that stuff as well.
BTW: I like speed myself, if applied in a musical way. I used to be one of those people who dismissed fast players per definition, but that was before I really start to think about it and compare guitarists with pianists, wich is still very interesting to do since pianists can also play fast and usually sound way less mechanical.
Apart from Vai's tapping, which sounds to me like a super nova of notes, there's nothing he plays at really intimidating speed, but it still sounds like nothing else on earth. Actually, this isn't the point I'm making.. but does anyone have an idea of Vai's NPS when he's doing that?
You're right about attack and feel.. K'm Pee Du Wee is full of things that make my ears perk up and my mind's ear go 'Ahhh', but nothing is played at anything like 15 NPS.
It comes back to what I was saying about note contours.. the note configurations and the intervals within.. that's where it's at. Malmsteen understands that, but I think he'd rather not mess with a winning formula, which could be why he keeps at it with the up and down scales thing. There could also be a creativity issue there, also.
There was a (now imfamous) article in a (Guitarist?) magazine where they racked up people's NPS (regardless of technique used), Vai was infact in at no.1 with a tapping lick (I think it was from The Riddle) at 21nps.
Well, honestly, the only thing that really matters is WHAT you do with the speed when playing. Is it purely for the 'look at me' factor (Rusty Cooley comes to mind, though he has some serious chops, so I won't slag him for that - though not my taste), or is it from a 'musical' standpoint.
Having listened to many of the 'speed' players, I must say that Lane was one of the fastest ever....but, alot of times, he just sounded really BORING. I love his music, but hated when he went 'off' and just played these blinding chromatic/diminished runs that really sounded like sped up PAC Man. When he played to the song, he was unstopable. Alot of players use speed to show-off, but don't use it for the sake of the song. Hey, I was guilty of the same thing years ago, but learned that either make it work for the tune, or don't do it.
Being a huge Yngwie fan, I think his use of speed playing is amazing. He never sounds forced, yet it works so well for what he does. Same thing with Joe Stump (and having taken lessons from the guy - he is without a doubt one of the fastest I've ever witnessed), who uses his chops to enhance his compositions.
As for Guthrie, there isn't anything this guy can't do, and yet he remains one of the tastiest players on the planet.
Speaking of speed, does anyone around here remember the Vinnie Vincent scandal? He was Ace Frehley's first replacement in Kiss and later formed his own band -Invasion. Vincent was a big deal, up & coming guitarist in the late 80's until word got out that some of the solos on his recordings were artificially sped up. After that he kinda disappeared.
Then there's The Great Kat-- who might just be Vinnie in drag, I dunno.
I guess in the wrong hands, speed kills.
Integrity and musicality keep the car on the road.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:43 am Post subject:
RD wrote:
In my opinion, another thing, besides velocity, or dynamics, that separates musical fast players from the mechanical-sounding ones is 'passion'.
I can usually hear it in people's sound; not because of their equipment, but their attack of the notes. This goes for Guthrie and Lane too. Although I've also heard mechanical Lane stuff, wich I liked less. I heard it in that clip I put on this board a while ago, the beginning of that 'Sneaky Petes' video; at certain moments I really loved that note attack. I liked that ultra-speed licks a bit less.. And I doublt if anyone has ever measured those like in that video. Sounds like 5000 notes per second if you know what I mean.
I can also hear this kind of passion in Malmsteen's notes. Sure, he should cut it out with the obvious scale/mode running that we know by know, but his 'feel' and vibrato, the passion, really stands out. I mean, I just LOVE Malmsteen's vibrato!!! I never heard anything like it.
In the end, the spead measuring is just stupid in my opinion. I mean, a three note per string pattern repeated over several adjecent strings is way easier then some serious string skipping lick that has no steady amount of notes per string and it usually sounds more interesting too. The cool thing is that I've seen Guthrie do some of that stuff as well.
BTW: I like speed myself, if applied in a musical way. I used to be one of those people who dismissed fast players per definition, but that was before I really start to think about it and compare guitarists with pianists, wich is still very interesting to do since pianists can also play fast and usually sound way less mechanical.
Very good points! There are many factors involved in what constitutes great playing - slow or fast. And fast can certainly be emotional and passionate when it's within the context of the music. As you say, comparing a guitarist's playing to that of an accomplished piano player, a violinist, a sax player, etc., is a good way to gauge if the guitarist is playing real music or the "look at me" finger exercises.
I don't really think about what Guthrie's fingers are doing when I listen to him play. I follow the notes like I would when I listen to a piano player. As I always like to say, I'm more impressed with Guthrie's brain chops than his physical fingers chops. It's his note choices that connect with me more than how well he's playing. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:55 am Post subject:
Mattriani wrote:
Yes, I agree..
Apart from Vai's tapping, which sounds to me like a super nova of notes, there's nothing he plays at really intimidating speed, but it still sounds like nothing else on earth. Actually, this isn't the point I'm making.. but does anyone have an idea of Vai's NPS when he's doing that?
You're right about attack and feel.. K'm Pee Du Wee is full of things that make my ears perk up and my mind's ear go 'Ahhh', but nothing is played at anything like 15 NPS.
It comes back to what I was saying about note contours.. the note configurations and the intervals within.. that's where it's at. Malmsteen understands that, but I think he'd rather not mess with a winning formula, which could be why he keeps at it with the up and down scales thing. There could also be a creativity issue there, also.
I think the Guitarist magazine in UK concluded that Vai was the fastest guitarist in the world based on that tapping lick which measured out at 21 NPS. Vai is a great player, no doubt, but I've always felt his greatest strength is in composition, arranging, and production. But that being said, I've been less than enamored with the stuff he's put out since "Fire Garden". As far as straight-out playing is concerned, I do think there are now quite a few players who do much scarier and more musically interesting stuff. But that's just my personal opinion.
Yngwie remains an amazing player. The problem is that it stops being amazing after about 2 minutes for a lot of people. For me, I can skip around some old Yngwie DVD's and enjoy it for about 15 minutes gawking at his effortless control and speed, but I'm not really listening to the music. I'm watching his playing from a guitar player's point of view going, "How the heck does he do that?!?" I think Yngwie is a better improvisor than Vai. Yngwie doesn't play the same solo twice. Vai always repeats his recorded solos note for note. They both have their things and are great at what they do. _________________ Ed Yoon
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:59 am Post subject:
art wrote:
There was a (now imfamous) article in a (Guitarist?) magazine where they racked up people's NPS (regardless of technique used), Vai was infact in at no.1 with a tapping lick (I think it was from The Riddle) at 21nps.
Yeah, I saw that like everyone else. I don't give it much credence because of the arbitrary choices of songs/solos that were measured and because I don't really see the point of the article. Good for a chuckle, though! _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:03 am Post subject:
shredizalive wrote:
Ahh the lovely speed discussion.....
Well, honestly, the only thing that really matters is WHAT you do with the speed when playing. Is it purely for the 'look at me' factor (Rusty Cooley comes to mind, though he has some serious chops, so I won't slag him for that - though not my taste), or is it from a 'musical' standpoint.
Having listened to many of the 'speed' players, I must say that Lane was one of the fastest ever....but, alot of times, he just sounded really BORING. I love his music, but hated when he went 'off' and just played these blinding chromatic/diminished runs that really sounded like sped up PAC Man. When he played to the song, he was unstopable. Alot of players use speed to show-off, but don't use it for the sake of the song. Hey, I was guilty of the same thing years ago, but learned that either make it work for the tune, or don't do it.
Being a huge Yngwie fan, I think his use of speed playing is amazing. He never sounds forced, yet it works so well for what he does. Same thing with Joe Stump (and having taken lessons from the guy - he is without a doubt one of the fastest I've ever witnessed), who uses his chops to enhance his compositions.
As for Guthrie, there isn't anything this guy can't do, and yet he remains one of the tastiest players on the planet.
Well, for better or for worse, in sickness or in good health, the speed factor won't go away when it comes to discussing Guthrie's style. It's just what it is and a deeply integrated aspect of what he does. It's too bad that some people dismiss Guthrie only because he can play very fast and they assume very fast means no soul, no taste, no feel, blah, blah, blah... Well, it's their loss, not ours! _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:10 am Post subject:
thinline72 wrote:
Speaking of speed, does anyone around here remember the Vinnie Vincent scandal? He was Ace Frehley's first replacement in Kiss and later formed his own band -Invasion. Vincent was a big deal, up & coming guitarist in the late 80's until word got out that some of the solos on his recordings were artificially sped up. After that he kinda disappeared.
Then there's The Great Kat-- who might just be Vinnie in drag, I dunno.
I guess in the wrong hands, speed kills.
Integrity and musicality keep the car on the road.
Yeah, I remember that. So many "Where are they now?" names from that era... Grunge killed most of them off but a handful of the truly talented survived through the 90's - obviously the G3 guys (who continued to be successful), and to a lesser degree - Lane, Garsed, Howe, Buckethead, Gilbert, MacAlpine, etc. Yeah, these guys kept their cars on the road but aren't exactly burning rubber either in this rather glum music scene... Hopefully, Guthrie will spearhead a new movement of very musical and tune-oriented over-the-top guitar playing. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
... Hopefully, Guthrie will spearhead a new movement of very musical and tune-oriented over-the-top guitar playing.[/quote]
As is the usual scenario, Govan will be a smash in Europe and Japan... and we'll all have to travel abroad to catch him live. We're experiencing the dumbing down of the American music scene. Do we all have to put on a Hip-Hop hat to make a buck in this country? Every genre that isn't completely commercially viable and manipulatable has been dropped into the cult can. Kinda ironic here in the information age. If not for the internet, the whole country might be marching to 3 songs by now. As it is, there are about 3 songs disguised as 40.
Please read my post in the Scott Henderson discussion:
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Mirfield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject:
Speed is a thing that many musicians, not just guitarists, are obesessed by. Classical pianists compare speeds for playing different pieces and sections of pieces to see who's recording is the fastest and cleanest, but they don't have the problem of being accused of writing purile rubbish because they're playing something by Chopin, or Rachmaninoff, or whoever, so it's alright for them. If a guitarist writes a piece of music that is speed from start to finish he'll be accused of having no musical imagination and wanking, whereas Chopin's Etudes are respected as serious concert pieces. The reason for this is, I feel, that we are guitarists playing rock music, not classical pianists playing serious music. I use the pianists as a comparison because that is my second instrument, and so I can compare most easily. As for the Vai thing, it was Total Guitar, and 21nps ai about 1:05 of The Riddle, however this survey included only a few guitarists and was purely (as is stated at the beginning of the articel) a tongue-in-cheek article to go with the 80s theme of that issue, not a definitive list of the fastest players ever. _________________ "My advice to aspiring guitarists? Wear sunblock and use a condom!"- Steve Vai
I think that's where Shawn and Guthrie stand out. They play music with other great musicians and use speed where and when required in their own inimitable musical ways. And they never sound like they're trying to play the fastest they possibly can. They have "headroom" in their playing and don't push the pedal to the metal for the sake of doing so. Most music don't require for one to play 20 NPS. I can sure tell that Guthrie doesn't play any faster than what the song requires. The fastest I've seen him play was when he was noodling on different kinds of gear at the music store. If the music calls for it, he'll burn it up, but it still has to sound musical depending on the tempo and the mood of the song.
Brilliant Ed. _________________ ...the torch has been passed...
I don't really think about what Guthrie's fingers are doing when I listen to him play. I follow the notes like I would when I listen to a piano player. As I always like to say, I'm more impressed with Guthrie's brain chops than his physical fingers chops. It's his note choices that connect with me more than how well he's playing.
Exactly! I had the same thing when looking at the jan 19 DVD (I've never seen Guthrie live, so the DVD is the next best thing for me).
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:45 am Post subject:
Vai_disciple wrote:
Speed is a thing that many musicians, not just guitarists, are obesessed by. Classical pianists compare speeds for playing different pieces and sections of pieces to see who's recording is the fastest and cleanest, but they don't have the problem of being accused of writing purile rubbish because they're playing something by Chopin, or Rachmaninoff, or whoever, so it's alright for them. If a guitarist writes a piece of music that is speed from start to finish he'll be accused of having no musical imagination and wanking, whereas Chopin's Etudes are respected as serious concert pieces. The reason for this is, I feel, that we are guitarists playing rock music, not classical pianists playing serious music.
Yeah, rock guitar players, in general, don't get much respect and it's not hard to understand why - just walk into any local music store. There's no doubt that classical buffs (and even jazz for that matter) put a lot of emphasis on technique and speed. But in genres such as classical and jazz, a certain level of technical proficiency is practically a prerequisite to perform. Rock, which is still essentially blues-based, doesn't have such requirements.
I grew up listening to classical music as a little kid and it's as though I need to hear some high level of proficiency and musicianship in my music-listening diet. But ultimately, music is what matters - the writing, the arrangements, the moods, the timbres, etc. Virtuosity without musical content is not going to be remembered or well-received in any musical genre. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
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It's just what it is and a deeply integrated aspect of what he does. It's too bad that some people dismiss Guthrie only because he can play very fast and they assume very fast means no soul, no taste, no feel, blah, blah, blah... Well, it's their loss, not ours! 
There's no doubt that classical buffs (and even jazz for that matter) put a lot of emphasis on technique and speed. But in genres such as classical and jazz, a certain level of technical proficiency is practically a prerequisite to perform. Rock, which is still essentially blues-based, doesn't have such requirements.