A respected jazz player says, "Guthrie is a great all-around player, albeit somewhat shreddy"... Shreddy... It's mentioned in a very disapproving manner. Jazz players really hate shred. They frown upon it. They think Guthrie is a monster talent but wish he would tame that despicable "shreddiness". Automatically, shred means no sense of swing, no harmonic concepts, no taste, no tone, no ability to blow over complex changes - blah, blah, blah... It's understandable. Jazzholes have the right to express their opinions as they see fit.
The funny thing is that the "shreddiness" that jazz players look down upon is what I find so much more fun to listen to in Guthrie than typical high-browed jazz playing. Yes, many shredders give shred a bad name and perhaps that's what it comes down to. The excesses of the late-80's Shrapnel era still disgust many a guitar music fans and anything that resembles the sounds of that era are automatically dismissed by the jazz/fusion/blues purist types as some lowlife form of guitar playing. Well, it really doesn't matter, does it? I certainly couldn't care less because it's all personal taste in the end. What I find encouraging is the number of new Guthrie fans joining the fold on a daily basis. Now, that's a cool thing!
Many rock/shred players could claim that jazz guitarists have an extremely limited range of articulation and tone for notes - not many bends, let alone large bends, no distortion etc.
Errr.... limited range of articulation?? I think that good jazz players have VERY good articulation for that matter.
I wasn't commentating on individual players, but the traditional jazz-guitar idiom doesn't feature the range of articulation that a typical (good) rock player will.
Take something like 'Hear my Train a-Comin' by Jimi Hendrix, then compare it to something like 'Oleo' from Pat Martino's Live at Yoshi's. Notice the difference? Jimi's features a much wider range of dynamics, different articulation, tones etc. Since it's also a slower piece than Martino's he also uses a wider range of rhythms.
See, this is the (general!) difference; rock players try to keep the listener's interests more by the articulation whilst using a limited amount of notes, where as jazzers (generally) do the opposite.
I guess it's what is appealing about fusion, that it mixes the two elements, though, of course, it's all about taste and how it's done which matters.
Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 570 Location: gothenburg, sweden
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject:
James W wrote:
Take something like 'Hear my Train a-Comin' by Jimi Hendrix, then compare it to something like 'Oleo' from Pat Martino's Live at Yoshi's. Notice the difference? Jimi's features a much wider range of dynamics, different articulation, tones etc. Since it's also a slower piece than Martino's he also uses a wider range of rhythms.
Well, Martino is an almost extreme case since he plays almost exclusively straight eight-notes with a pick -- even compared to other jazz guitarists. You could say he's the father of that specific sound -- I've heard a lot of players trying to emulate his style (I've tried but unfortunately neither my brain nor my hands are quick enough). Also, "Oleo" is a hellish fast tune, even for a be bop tune. Yes, be bop is for the most played at break neck speed, but listen to the old be bop masters: they play fast, but with rhytmic variation and lots of dynamics, and rarely staccato or straight legato.
I can see your point. But I find it only partially true. Compare with Wes Montgomery, John Abercrombie, Scott Henderson, John Scofield, Metheny, Wayne Krantz ...
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:06 am Post subject:
govango wrote:
An American Jazz guy no doubt wrote:
a jazz guy said that he felt Guthrie's solos in the Fellowship setting, from a rhythmic point of view, were too much on the beat - very "European" and "not American"
This is more of an observation than a critisicm. Maybe it's the fact that he is a european musician. Come on, whoever said this is clutching at straws. Guthrie is an almost flawless player.
Well, I find it interesting to hear people's opinions and any criticisms they may have about Guthrie. In many cases, I don't agree, but they're food for thought and perhaps something that Guthrie could chew on for awhile as well. When respectable players have some things to say about Guthrie, I listen and try to see things from their points of view.
Does Guthrie want to be recognized as having a European (English) flavor in his playing or does he want to sound more American? I don't know. I don't know if he even cares or not or if he's even given it any thought. If he's playing the blues, how important is it for him to sound like, say, Buddy Guy or Albert King or T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters? If he plays jazz, how important is it for Guthrie to cop the feel and swing of, say, a Wes, Martino, Jim Hall, Benson, Pass, etc? I don't think it's all that important, but the purists into these players expect a new player to at least resemble them in terms of feel, rhythm, tone, etc. since they set the standards in those genres. They expect more than just the notes to be executed properly.
There's certainly room for Guthrie to improve in many areas and he'll be the first to say that. He's going to improve and get better and better for many, many years to come. I'm always throwing ideas and new players at him to check out - books, DVD's, CD's, clips, links, gear, whatever. I just want to make sure he's exposed to whatever I feel he can learn from and help him improve as a musician and guitar player. Art is a lifelong learning process - the better you get, the further away that "ideal" realm of musical perfection moves away from you. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
This is a very interesting and intelligent thread to read! I respect everyone's opinions here, and it's true that in the end it's all down to personal taste.
I love a lot of guitar players...each player touches me in a different way...from George Benson's tasty runs... Neal Schon's 'crying' bends...Gary Moore's vocal melodic lines to Paul Gilbert's rapid fire picking and Jason Becker's arpeggios... etc. etc.
But Guthrie somehow catches my interest in an inexplicable way. After Nuno Bettencourt in the early 90's...there were still 'guitar heroes' sprouting from every corner of the planet until now, but somehow none of their playing can touch me deeply like Guthrie's. Again...this is purely subjective...being a die hard Guthrie fan...but to me, just like the more influential players who re-define the boundaries of the guitar in each decade, like what Jimi Hendrix was to the late 60's, EVH to the late 70's/early-mid 80's, Vai/Satch/Malmsteen to the late 80's and so forth...I think Guthrie is the guitar player who is fulfilling that role for the current era. He may not be that famous/influential yet due to the lack of exposure that he so deserves (I dont think Steve Vai's talents would be that well known if not for the DLR gig), but Guthrie is definitely the guitarist who can quench my thirst for something fresh, technically and emotionally.
I just hope David Coverdale or somebody in that ilk will snap him up and unleash him to larger audiences...so that he gets the recognition that he truly deserves. _________________
(Banner Designed at Losfer Words Records)
I'd like to hear GG in the context of something like Mike Stern's "Upside Downside" album-- OR how 'bout a super-edgy instrumental tribute to Steely Dan. I mean super-edgy too, so as not to stick GG into a smooth jazz vein.
Anyone familiar with that Mike Stern stuff will know what I mean here.
A "Metal Bop" of sorts.
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Automatically, shred means no sense of swing, no harmonic concepts, no taste, no tone, no ability to blow over complex changes - blah, blah, blah... It's understandable. Jazzholes have the right to express their opinions as they see fit.
