Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 101 Location: Chula Vista, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:50 am Post subject:
Haven't been around here in a long time but saw the link to this thread elsewhere and after reading through the posts I think assumptions are possibly being made about the original guys.
I'd be more than willing to bet that Steve Howe did not approach anyone but was in fact "approached" and offered a guaranteed pay check to do this. Calling him a has been is a bit harsh too. Legend is a bit more appropriate.
What Steve did during those peak Yes years is enough to cement him as one of the greats of ALL TIME (I'm certain Guthrie would agree to this).
Just because he has not had any commercial successes in the last decade (or two) does nothing to diminish this in my book.
It's obvious that this is slimy and guys are taking the shaft undeservedly so but I just think it's NOT fair to hammer someone like Howe who most likely got an offer he couldn't refuse.
Just my 2 cents. _________________ What would we all do without guitars............. take up knitting?
Last edited by Donnie B. on Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:33 am; edited 1 time in total
It's obvious that this is slimy and guys are taking the shaft undeservedly so but I just think it's fair to hammer someone like Howe who most likely got an offer he couldn't refuse.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:26 am Post subject:
Donnie B. wrote:
Haven't been around here in a long time but saw the link to this thread elsewhere and after reading through the posts I think assumptions are possibly being made about the original guys.
I'd be more than willing to bet that Steve Howe did not approach anyone but was in fact "approached" and offered a guaranteed pay check to do this. Calling him a has been is a bit harsh too. Legend is a bit more appropriate.
What Steve did during those peak Yes years is enough to cement him as one of the greats of ALL TIME (I'm certain Guthrie would agree to this).
Just because he has not had any commercial successes in the last decade (or two) does nothing to diminish this in my book.
It's obvious that this is slimy and guys are taking the shaft undeservedly so but I just think it's fair to hammer someone like Howe who most likely got an offer he couldn't refuse.
Just my 2 cents.
Agreed. I'll admit I said those things at "The Heat of the Moment", pun intended! I was a huge Yes fan back when so I fully appreciate the contributions of Steve Howe. Yes, there are many assumptions being made, but the way this whole thing is being handled is only fueling such assumptions. It's like a madhouse at the Asia forum and I could only take it in for a little while before I fled rolling my eyes.
Regarding Steve Howe, I watched a recent Yes reunion DVD and I thought it was all pretty horrible. They're just shells of their former selves. Some guys like McLaughlin have maintained their skills and stayed at the cutting edge. The same just can't be said of Howe. I even went to see Asia's first tour back in '82 only because I had bought the tickets before the debut album was released. If the album had come out before they sold the tickets, I would not have gone to see them. Steve Howe came crashing down from my list of faves right then.
Some guys have crashed from their guitar hero status when "better" players come along - Page when EVH came along, EVH when the G3 guys came along, Howe when all those guys came along, etc. But some have stayed at the cutting edge and stayed near the top over the decades despite a constant barrage of new young talents coming up: Jeff Beck, John McLaughlin, Allan Holdsworth, and Pat Metheny are some notable names still at the very top and still as vital now as they were in the 70's and the early-80's. Compared to these guys, Page, EVH, Howe, (heck, even EJ to a large degree) and many others just crashed and burned as far as keeping their elite guitar hero status alive. That's not to diminish their accomplishments during their peak - but those peak years were a long, long time ago. They're like once-great athletes who've lost all of their skills but still stick around as bench warmers. But I guess when you consider that, it makes artists like Beck, McLaughlin, Holdsworth, and Metheny that much more amazing. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 101 Location: Chula Vista, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:46 am Post subject:
alexkhan wrote:
I said those things at "The Heat of the Moment", pun intended!
Cute. You make a point Ed. Not sure I agree a ton. You have to admit that guys like Johnny Mac and Beck are jewels that really don't fit into the "normal" guitar player category. There's been a billion players but only a handful of "gifts" to us like Beck, Mac, Lane, Govan, Hendrix (consider the era), and others. Because Guthrie is the subject matter it's much too easy to slag "normal" players like Howe (how ridiculous does that read!)
Guthrie in my book is most likely the most scary player alive at the moment alongside Allan. Where he will be when he is 40 or 50 or 60 is a mystery. Howe blazed a trail that no-one before him had ever walked. The fact that he's not the same player now as he was in his peak means nothing. The fact that he could not maintain that level of completely ORIGINAL creativity means nothing. _________________ What would we all do without guitars............. take up knitting?
Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 101 Location: Chula Vista, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:47 am Post subject:
RD wrote:
Donnie B. wrote:
It's obvious that this is slimy and guys are taking the shaft undeservedly so but I just think it's NOT fair to hammer someone like Howe who most likely got an offer he couldn't refuse.
Just my 2 cents.
Yes it's fair, like you said
TYPO CORRECTED. lol _________________ What would we all do without guitars............. take up knitting?
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:30 am Post subject:
Donnie B. wrote:
alexkhan wrote:
I said those things at "The Heat of the Moment", pun intended!
Cute. You make a point Ed. Not sure I agree a ton. You have to admit that guys like Johnny Mac and Beck are jewels that really don't fit into the "normal" guitar player category. There's been a billion players but only a handful of "gifts" to us like Beck, Mac, Lane, Govan, Hendrix (consider the era), and others. Because Guthrie is the subject matter it's much too easy to slag "normal" players like Howe (how ridiculous does that read!)
Guthrie in my book is most likely the most scary player alive at the moment alongside Allan. Where he will be when he is 40 or 50 or 60 is a mystery. Howe blazed a trail that no-one before him had ever walked. The fact that he's not the same player now as he was in his peak means nothing. The fact that he could not maintain that level of completely ORIGINAL creativity means nothing.
We're treading on subjectivity. If Howe meant that much to you, fine. He doesn't mean that much to me except in terms of nostalgia. I also loved Ace Frehley as have so many others. At the time I thought he was "better" than Joe Perry or Ted Nugent or Keith Richards. We see in hindsight what they really contributed and how our tastes have evolved. All's speculative, but my guess is that Howe and Wetton wanted in on this deal to push the "new" guys out so they can make the dough. Carl Palmer, just based on what he's saying on his own forum, seems very guarded about the whole thing. It figures - he's the most talented of the ex-bunch. You have your opinions and I have mine. I just don't like Steve Howe and do not consider him a legend by any stretch of the means. But that's just my opinion. I have no idea how Guthrie feels about Howe. He's mentioned over a hundred guitar players to me and Howe wasn't one of 'em. Doesn't mean Guthrie dislikes him. Guthrie could be a fan for all I know. It still wouldn't affect my feelings about Howe. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 101 Location: Chula Vista, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject:
I guess we'll agree to disagree then Ed. The fact that Steve Howe resides in Guitar Player magazines Gallery of the Greats based on his winning the 'best overall guitarist" category 5 years in a row means I'm not alone in my opinion.
His work on tracks like Mood For a Day, The Clap, To Be Over, Gates of Delirium, Siberian Khatru, Awaken, and Yours Is No Disgrace make him a legend in my book. What other player during that time was fusing guys like Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Merle Travis, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Jimmy Bryant, Julian Bream, and not a hint of blues?
I also was disgusted with both GTR and Asia but it didn't diminish what he did in the 70s. _________________ What would we all do without guitars............. take up knitting?
(heck, even EJ to a large degree) and many others just crashed and burned as far as keeping their elite guitar hero status alive. That's not to diminish their accomplishments during their peak - but those peak years were a long, long time ago. They're like once-great athletes who've lost all of their skills but still stick around as bench warmers. But I guess when you consider that, it makes artists like Beck, McLaughlin, Holdsworth, and Metheny that much more amazing.
EJ has crashed and burned!?! Sorry, I couldn´t disagree more. I agree that his putting a record in 7 years habit is a very bad one (not a good idea to use that argument on the Guthrie forum, given how long GG´s album is taking), but he´s still one of the very finest guitarists around. I simply think he does not feel the need to play like he used to, his style and taste has changed, but for me , EJ can play rings around JB with one hand and show PM a couple of tricks while doing so. _________________ "Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject:
Perhaps that's a strong term, but I was talking about it more from the public's perception of how he compares to some of the best players around. Check this thread:
Of course, EJ's a great player, but I've been hearing a lot of things from many people whose ears and judgments I trust that he just wasn't all that good when they went to see him live recently. Some people told me they just walked out of his shows because he was so bad. Perhaps it has to do with his hearing problems, but I've been shocked myself to hear these kinds of reports from people. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject:
Donnie B. wrote:
I also was disgusted with both GTR and Asia but it didn't diminish what he did in the 70s.
I agree on this point, but, to me, true legends are artists who have maintained a consistently high level of artistry, integrity, performance standards and have also evolved and continued to grow and improve over their entire careers. Glitches and a bad album here and there can happen to anybody and it indeed has happened with even the greatest of legends in any genre of music, but they recover and find a new muse and evolve, find another direction and create something new and are as good or better than ever.
Look, I think 'The Yes Album', 'Fragile', and 'Close to the Edge' were good albums and there's some very fine playing by Howe on them, but, to me, those albums represent the peak of his career and even that peak wasn't all that great or influential. That whole era and school of "art/progressive rock" represented by bands like Yes, ELP, Genesis, etc. are considered a dubious footnote in the history of rock and roll. Now, King Crimson, they're a different story. They continued to evolve and push the envelope. To me, King Crimson is a legendary band and Robert Fripp is a player and artist deserving of legendary status. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Yeah they both have the same surname.. freaky aint it _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Gotta say I'm a little bummed by the news of GG's departure from Asia. There's a part of me that keeps hoping for for a truly inspiring convergence of great, cutting-edge guitar coupled with outstanding vocals and great tunes. Sure, that's a time-warp wish borne from too many years of Zeppelin, Hendrix and early Cream. And mustn't forget that to my ears one of the greatest collaborations of a guitar god with a vocalist remains the first two Beck albums (Truth and Beck-ola) with Rod Stewart. That was a very different Rod Stewart from the one of later MTV fame. The more recent attempts by Vai and a few others to add vocals to their game have been disappointing and inconsistent at best. What's that you say? Oh yeah, I suppose you're right --- some of that stuff really sucks. A lot of the lyrics sound like they were written by a dreamy 12-year old with a bong.
Anyway, much as I love instrumental guitar (in fact, that's pretty much all I buy or listen to), I was hoping that GG would nudge Asia in a direction where his stellar guitar work would be on equal footing with the rest of the lineup. Plus, I expect he was having a blast doing it. Ah, but what the heck... if this means he'll have more time for his solo work, or a Fellowship release, or whatever else he chooses, then all the better.
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I was a huge Yes fan back when so I fully appreciate the contributions of Steve Howe. Yes, there are many assumptions being made, but the way this whole thing is being handled is only fueling such assumptions. It's like a madhouse at the Asia forum and I could only take it in for a little while before I fled rolling my eyes.
