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Another "what would you play over this"...

 
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Jim_Cross



Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Another "what would you play over this"... Reply with quote

I've been playing around with a few chord progressions recently trying to get out of the pentatonic rut...and failing!

Given the progression Dm9 - G13 - Cmaj7, what scales would you be looking at to give the solo different voicings?
I just can't get away from C major pentatonic Rolling Eyes
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

over cMaj7, play c lydian or B minor pentatonic.

.
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jordan



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Essentially that's a ii-V-I in C, so there are numerous options you could use.

C Ionian would work over all of it, or you could seperate out the individual modes to give D Dorian over Dm9, G Mixolydian over G13 and C Ionian over Cmaj7.

Other options would be to maybe stop thinking in scales and start thinking in arpeggios. They're a useful tool....and not just for jazz Smile

If you were being a bit cheeky you could use some tritone substution on the dominant chord (ie. swap G13 for any Db dominant chord)....this would then give further arpeggio and scale ideas, although they might sound a little bit 'out there'.

You could also try pentatonic substitution, whereby in theory, seeing as all of the chords are diatonic to the key of C, the pentatonic scales built on I, IV, and V of the C major scale should work over the progression. This means the C major pentatonic, F major pentatonic and G major pentatonic should only contain notes within C Ionian, and therefore sound ok. This one can take some work, but it's in interesting way of generating different sounds using your favourite pentatonic licks.

As an exercise, and seeing as you're trying to get away from pentatonics (kudos for that, btw), try creating as many chromatic lines as you can, and just be sure to target the strong tones in each chord....this is an interesting way of improvising and often throws up some licks you wouldn't normally stumble across.

Finally, consider setting yourself the challenge of only playing C major pentatonic, but use large interval leaps and position shifts (think Eric Johnson) to try and make it sound as un-pentatonic as possible.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.....

Cheers,
Jordan.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Another "what would you play over this"... Reply with quote

Jim_Cross wrote:
I've been playing around with a few chord progressions recently trying to get out of the pentatonic rut...and failing!

Given the progression Dm9 - G13 - Cmaj7, what scales would you be looking at to give the solo different voicings?
I just can't get away from C major pentatonic Rolling Eyes


I'm playing with a few things at present:

Dm9 - G13 - Cmaj7 is the classic ii-V-I in C so the stock answer could be

Playing the changes.
Dm7 arpeggio
Gdom arpeggio
C maj arpeggio

Or the modes alternative
D minor/dorian
G mixolydian/super-locrian
C major/lydian

Or the relative modes alternative - when you've got a good motiff modify it to the mode relative to C .. so the lick just changes a note here or there.
Like playing a Bb in C just means a flat 7, but over the D means a flat 6th (so minor instead of dorian mode) or in G a dorian sound rather than a mixolydian sound.

Or the harmonic extension alternative
Play an F major arpeggio over the Dm9 chord.
Play an A minor arpeggio over the G13 chord.
Play a mix of C maj arpeggios and G dominant arpeggios over C major.

All that's doing is recognising that A minor is made of the 9th, 11th, 13th notes of G major, same idea for Dm9

Now I'm going to say stick with the pentatonics just learn to use them in more ways, an A minor pentatonic used in the last instance isn't going to hit the spot as the 2nd and 6th notes are taken out (it'd be the G mixolydian but without the 3rd and 7th (important chord tones).. but there's other pentatonic patterns you can add to replace those and augment the notes you want to hear lots of: like the G major pentatonic (except the 7th and 11th).

I find the most valuable thing is to SLOW RIGHT DOWN Wink hear the notes before you play them. It doesn't matter how good you are, slowing down will allow you to hear more notes in between.. really it's only the intervals that are important but the more links you make to flavours of interval the more likely you are to remember why you like the sound in your head. The stuff I've listed isn't maths to make music but maths to discover the notes you think are music Wink
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jordan



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great answer......although is there an echo in here? Wink
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frankus



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jordan wrote:
Great answer......although is there an echo in here? Wink


Yeah the quality of the signal was deteriorating Laughing Embarassed
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splatter



Joined: 22 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff, and thanks for the info, Frankus. One question, though - you mentioned that you could play G superlocrian over the G13... isn't the superlocrian only applicable to altered doms?
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frankus



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the rule (with restraint) that the super locrian can be used over any functioning dominant chord. The pull of the V to I chord is strong so as a narrator of the path through the music you can pile on "outness" at this stage...

If you think about telling the story of the Three Little Pigs, you just know he'll huff and puff and you know he'll knock down 2 houses and fail on the last. At these stages of the story telling you can take the most liberties, turn the wolf into a shark.. the houses into boats made of straw, wood and iron ... people will still know the story and there's an unspoken contract, they'll trust you to mess around with the story as long as you don't confuse or mess up the important bits.. or if you do to be entertaining with it.

One of the Greek philosophers came up with the principles of comedy, I reckon they'd apply to improvisation too
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art



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Jimmy Bruno's approach to II V Is.

What you have is a II V I in C, if you wrote all the notes out you would get C D E F G A B C (C Major). You COULD think D dorian, G Mixo, C Ion. Or you could just think C Ionian/Major. The notes are all the same, but the quality or sound of each note changes depending on what chord is being played behind it.
E.g. Play a B (note) over the Dm chord, then the G chord, then the C chord. The sound of the notes changes, the sound of all the notes changes. So it doesn't matter whether you say D dorian, or C major, the chord changes the quality of the notes. It then makes it far easier to just think of all your C major notes, but target different ones.

Bruno calls the 4 notes of the chord (1 3/b3 5 7/b7) the 'legs' of the table, the notes which are really strong and resolute. The other notes are less so.

Then you have the 5 outside notes, which also all have a different effect. So throwing in the F# over the C will have the Lydian sound effect, although it won't sound too great (unless quickly passing) over the G (because of the F Natural).
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Jim_Cross



Joined: 09 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the info guys Very Happy

I agree with the slowing down, hearing the notes in your mind before playing them approach. However, as someone brought up on music focussed almost totally on pentatonic and major voicings it can be really difficult to hear anything else in your mind. That's where I find scales/modes come in - giving other ideas for how something can sound. For example, I recently started playing around with pentatonic substitution, and found that really helped me to start hearing some jazzy alternatives to the typical blues type licks...
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frankus



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim_Cross wrote:
Thanks for all the info guys Very Happy

I agree with the slowing down, hearing the notes in your mind before playing them approach. However, as someone brought up on music focussed almost totally on pentatonic and major voicings it can be really difficult to hear anything else in your mind. That's where I find scales/modes come in - giving other ideas for how something can sound. For example, I recently started playing around with pentatonic substitution, and found that really helped me to start hearing some jazzy alternatives to the typical blues type licks...


I goofed up pentatonics first time around, I got the pentatonic minor and I learnt the wrong pattern for the major and ended up with a pattern that made this pentatonic: R 2 4 5 6 which in a 12 bar blues in dominant chords was disasterous sometimes and sublime at others. So I learnt to use 3 octave scales and modes and learnt the pentatonics I'd been playing since 16 were wrong.. hurrah for not getting a teacher sooner.

Now when I come back to it, I see pentatonics as arpeggios of different chords: using pentatonics as simple mindless patterns and not giving them a context other than the intervals it uses grafting onto a mode or harmonic extension you like the sound of is pretty cool.

Here's a simple for-instance all using CAGED patterns but imagining the root on the E string:
The major pentatonic pattern (root on the E string): R 2 3 5 6
The major pentatonic pattern (root on the D string): R 2 4 5 7
The major pentatonic pattern (root on the A string): R 2 4 5 6
The major pentatonic pattern (root on the C string) a semitone lower: 7 2 3 5 6
The major pentatonic pattern (root on the G string) a semitone lower: 7 2 3 4 6
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Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2 cents.

opinions. Try to stay off of the root on every chord. It's a pretty lame note to land on, tends to sound like you are finishing. So try thinking upper structures.


Basic idea for each chord.....(options)

Min 7 (R, b3, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13) "chordtones and extentions"

For Dmin9: D, F, A, C, E, G, B

Notice every thing in those notes....

1.)Cmajor scale, and all of its modes that correlate (like D dorian, or G mixolydian)

2.) Triads, Dmin, Fmaj, Amin, Cmaj, Emin, Gmaj, Bdim

3.) 7th chords: Dmin7, Fmaj7, Amin7, Cmaj7, Emin7, Gdom7, Bmin7b5

4.) Quartal Voicings: BEADGCF (quintal is the reverse order)

5,) Minor/major pentatonics: Emin pent, Amin pent, Dmin pent


Now do the same with the other 2 chords:

Dom7 (R, 3, 5, b7, b9, 9, #9, #11, b13, 13)

Major 7th (R, 3, 5, 7, 9, #11, 13)


Some interesting ways to manipulate this are:

Dmin9: Fmaj7 (thinking EFAC) Giving you 9th, 3rd, 5th, and 7th

G13: Then move last to voices down a half step (EFAbB) Giving you 13th, 7th, b9 and 3rd

Cmaj7: Then move inner voices up a half step (EF#AB) Giving you 3rd, #11, 13, and 7th


This way you are thinking more structures than linear, but you are simpilfying it by only moving a few notes at a time. (there are a lot of ways to do this)

Also you can think Pentatonics....

(steve khancept) Minor pents from 5th of ii chord, #9 of V chord, and 7th of I chord. So in the case of C major cadence:

Dmin: Amin Pent
G13: Bbmin Pent
Cmaj: Bmin Pent

As you can see you are just moving up a half step every chord change. Just try to put the 3rd in on the G13, otherwise it sounds less convincing. So this means the B natural b/c the notes you are playing are (Bb, Db, Eb, F, Ab) or (#9, #11, b13, ,b7, and b9 or all the altered notes)

Alright that's enough for now.

good luck,

Tim
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Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also if you would like to stay more tonal on the G13, notice that the #11 goes almost hand in hand with a 13th, they are almost part of the same sound, just like when you hear a b9 you almost always hear a #9.

So you may just think Lydian Dominant (d melodic minor) scale over the G13, meaning

G A B C# D E F, or if you'd rather call it Mixolydian #4 or something.

That way you could have 3 different scales to think of over that progression.

Cmajor scale over the Dmin9

D melodic minor scale over the G13

Gmajor scale over the Cmaj7


Or change the names if you'd rather work in modes. But with modes you tend to play the root too often, when you think Gmajor over Cmaj7 you tend to start on the G or 5th, which is way cooler.

So I've been trying to stay away from modes (name wise) because most people including myself, will start on the first note of scale a lot of the time.

Well good luck, I too am constantly working on all of this stuff. And remember to make it musical.

Cheers,

Tim

Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, don't forget about the Diminished, Whole tone, Harmonic Minor, and the billion other scales that can be used, especially over dominant.
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markrobinson



Joined: 04 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try all of these things. Break them down into different areas as suggested and practice them all, there's some really good stuff in this thread. When you're involved in a live improvisation though remember Miles Davis' wise words:

"Learn all your theory and then forget it".

It's valuable and essential to practice all this stuff to work it into your playing but you don't really want to be thinking too much when you're up there. Believe me I've been there and the results are normally less than desireable.

Mark
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Tuddsound



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,

I'm definitely not as knowledgable in jazz as the other guys in here, but hopefully I can offer you a little advice based on what I have been doing. I'm from the same school as you (pentatonics/ modes) and trying to branch out into jazz a little as well. I've been playing around with a simpler version of the II V I in C Major (Dmin7, G7, CMaj7). I have been playing diatonically (D Dorian, G Mixolydian and C Ionian) as others have suggested. I also am using the 7th arpeggios for each chord. I found by accenting or targeting the 3rds and sevenths of each chord while playing the arpeggios, it gives me a really jazzy sound. It seems pretty simple, and it has me playing some different licks than what I would normally come up with.
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