Guthrie Govan Discussion

[JohnnyP.]

hey guys,

I'm new to this forum and before I start to ask something I want to introduce myself shortly:

Alex, 18, playing guitar for about 4 years!


I have some questions concerning the picking-technique and the right-hanbd-movement!

There are some things that really annoy me about my picking and right hand movement: Firstly: I cant really play a run like Scale Fragment fluently (on several strings, not on one) but it sound more sloppy, my pick always gets stuck somewhere allthough I alternate-pick it. The other thing is that my whole arm gets tired quite fast, and it hurts a little bit in the elbow although I concentrate my movement on the wrist!

I can give an example of what is my goal: just listen to Dream Theater's "This Dyin Soul" from 10:30 till the end! this sounds so fluent and perfect!

But my goal is not only this-shred-technique but some fusion-like stuff.(like Guthrie )


Any help or recommendations for books DVD's,etc is welcome!


Regards, Alex

[JohnnyP.]

bump -.- c'mon guys, don't led me down

[dreamfullofzen]

Hey Johnny.
i wouldn't take it personally... picking technique is a very personal thing and it's very hard to help someone, since the way they hold the pick, the pick type, wrist and arm arc and whatnot all affect things, and without being in a room, it's hard to express that stuff in a written word......

but fret not (chuckle...), there are a few things we can look at..

first of all, lets economise here. allot of people want to learn to pick across all the strings at blazing speeds, so we have to minimise here. first take any scale shape, since ultimately the goal here is to develop technique, not lines or licks, so it doesn't matter, as long as its three note per string.

now practice going up and down the notes in question, first ascending, then descending. Now. look at your wrist/arm.... is it relaxed? and where is the motion coming from? if it's soleley from your wrist... excellent, if not, then that's not good... and guessing from your elbow pain/arm tiredness i'm guess you're tensing up and involving your forearm...

I struggled allot in developing my right hand technique since i couldn't get the mechanics of right hand technique. Fortunately i stumbled upon an amazing article written by Tuck Andreas, which reveled a lot to me.

First off. with your left hand, lightly squeeze the area where your wrist meets your forearm. Now move your hand side to side... feel those muscles and that motion? good. Now i want you to get a pen. get a piece of paper, and take the pen in your right hand... and write something slowly... then write something quickly... then just write notes or gibberish as quick as you can write....while still with your left hand holding your right arm... notice the way your hand is moving when you write slowly and quickly... that it's the same motion and muscles...but all is happening is Economy of motion... like a pendulum? hopefully you do and feel it, because now it's time to apply that to the guitar

main thing is to find a comfortable place for your hand.. some people float, some use their pinky as an anchor, and some use the bridge. there's no better way, just make sure that your hand is lined up and comfortable... so that when it comes to picking, you don't have to re-adjust or move it around or get yourself in the habit of shifting hand positions unneccesarily...

now... pick an open string, slowly and steadily over a click... then divide... 8th notes... 16th notes... 32nd notes... then 8th note triplets.... 16th note triplets... etc etc...

once you get comfortable with the motion and feel that there is very little tension, start applying it to scalar runs and ideas....

also focus on timing... allot of petrucci and gilberts runs aren't all done at breakneck speeds, but sound allot faster since they completely nail the timing and accents. Same with allot of guthries lines.. they sound so amazing because he knows exactly the grouping and the accents of that grouping, and makes it lock in so much that it just blows your mind.

Have fun working on that stuff... i assure you if you practice healthy and steadily and work focused, you'll get results. If i can do it, anybody can...and better too....

one thing also: when practising:

- stand up, don't sit down... bad for your elbow... also watchi your posture and have the guitar not too high, yet not too low....

- Bottle of mineral water. Drink water please. Don't neglect your health, especially when doing physical things like playing/practising

- long hour practising is a myth for development. I used to practice 20 minutes a pop, and i found myself developing allot quicker then the 4 hour cruel regimes i used to try... just make those 20 minutes focused, and uninteruppted.

have a good one

[JohnnyP.]

Mann, thats a killer-post

Firstly, thanks for your amazing advice! I really appreciate it, I'll check out your advice and post a review if it helped me or not, but I' optimistic that it will!


Lots of thanks for your advice and your time!!!

Alex

[dreamfullofzen]

[Yeah but guthrie]

Yeah with picking I find that you can do it on all different levels as with any aspect of guitar playing, like looking at different picking ideas. I used to pick solely with the movement from my thumb and first finger (dont laugh), actually got quite good to can you believe( I could play eugenes trick bag at full speed like that!!!) then i went on to wrist movement and then forearm stuff, and the combining the latter two which can have awsome effects. but as the guys say its all personal, eg guthrie picks mostly with his forearm (for runs etc) and rusty cooley as a wrist guy , although he does switch occasionally. I went so far as to look at it as plainly as "I have to get from here to here and hit everynote with a pick of the string, do it now", if you just look at all approaches possible youll find your own one developing from it by looking at what everyone else is doing and adjusting it to your own accord.you could even go down the marty friedman/zackwylde route, which involves and akward looking position but it seems to work for them, or even try the shawn lane inverted pick thing, loads of types, just look at em all
As for fusion, read the guthrie interview on alloutguitar.com, here he explains that where loads of people want have "instant greg howe" or in our case "instant guthrie", but tend to skip out the building blocks, basics and roots of rusion, ie he learnt it my playing along to old jazz standards, then wes montgomery stuff and then some sax/horn players like miles davis and john coltrane, Cant remember if he name drops all of them but you get the idea. Same in the greg howe interview, also if you listen to greg howes fusion stuff, youll here loads of classic licks that also appear in early fusion records. Unfortunately I think that fusion can be one of the hardest styles to get into because of all the little things that go with it, IE ridiculuos playing through changes- check out deryll gabels work, along with schofield, guthrie, howe, holdsworth etc, that stuff it so incredibly tough to get fluent in it is best to start at the shallow end and then wade in to the deep stuff if you see what I mean.
Anyway hope this helps a bit and doesent put you off to much, and good luck with your playing!!!
btw also on alloutguitar.com there are a few new columns on jazz and fusion etc:-)
_________________
"The reason why guthrie is so good, is that he doesen't spend most of his time on the petrucci forum bitching about vai"

[dreamfullofzen]

hey,
nothing to laugh about, using the finger and thumb (circular picking i believe) is fairly common, allot of country guys use it, as do E.J (on the more economy based stuff) and i've seen malmsteen do it mixed in with his wrist stuff.... i've caught myself doing it allot also on more smoother economy based lines or when i'm trying (i emphasis trying..lol) to bring out the accent more on weirder grouped lines...

as long as there's no tension and you bring the pick into smooth controlled motion, it's all gravy.

[Budda]

Hi!
This is my first post, here. I've just discovered GG. He truly is an incredible player.
But I wanted to chime in, on the picking question. All of the advice above is excellent.
I would add this: make sure your wrist isn't bent, at a sharp or unnatural angle. To do this, try playing while standing up. Both of your wrists should be as straight as possible. So, the guitar should hang at an angle, in front of you. The headstock should be shoulder to head high. Plus, the butt of the guitar should be about waist to hips high. If your guitar is lower, or hanging horizontally, your playing position can cause you problems.

Here's an exercise that helps me, and many of my students. I call it "wind sprints".
Just alternate pick a single note, on a single string. Find a comfortable speed. A speed where you can comfortably pick the note, for 30 seconds. Make sure the tempo isn't wavering. We'll call this your "jogging" speed. Don't try to make it fast. Just steady, and comfortable.
So, start "jogging". While watching a clock, after 20 to 30 seconds, pick as fast as you possibly can. Even if you screw up. Push it. For 15 seconds. No more than that. This is your "wind sprint". When you hit 15 seconds of "sprinting", go back to your "jogging speed". Don't stop picking.
So, do this continuously, for about 3 to 4 minutes. This is the length of most songs. "Jog", then "sprint". Back and forth. You may jog for 30 seconds, then sprint for 15. Or, 15 and 15.
You may want to start with only 1 minute of this. Then, build up to 4 minutes. Keep your wrist relaxed, when jogging. If anything hurts, STOP. Don't "play through the pain". Take a break, and let your arms and hands rest. Think about what you may be doing wrong. Analyze your technique. Then, try again later. If you feel pain, then you should wait at least an hour, before trying again.
After doing this exercise for a month or so, you should notice that your "jogging speed" is much faster, smoother, and more comfortable than when you started.

Also, check out Steve Morse's instructional materials. He's a monster alternate picker. He has a wonderful technique, too.

Let me know, if you try this. I'd be interested to know, if it helps you.

[AuntNastyOven]

I decided to post a reply here becaue I believe I have a somewhat unusual pick holding technique. I use 3 fingers instead of 2. Its just what I have been used too ever since I first started and the biggest advantage I get from this is stability I never feel like im gonna drop the pick and i can nail pinch harmonics and accents so much better than with 2 fingers because I feel like i have so much more control over the pick. This is just for me though. When it comes to speed picking ive been tyring to use economy picking as much as possible you can read up on the specifics of it but a good exercise i used to practice economy picking is as follows:

Take a pentatonic scale and first play through it all down strokes.
Then play through it alternate picking.
Then playing through it all up strokes (both down and up the scale), ive noticed this really helps in developing a solid upstroke pick which is important when picking quickly, alot of people lack in strength in the upstroke since alternate picking emphasizes downstrokes.
Then play through it in the economy picking pattern, which is difficult to explain exactly without examples which there are plenty of online.

[dreamfullofzen]

[AuntNastyOven]

Ive played holding the pick both ways and I like 3 fingers way better and when I need to use my fingers for picking along with the pick i just take the one finger off and do it. I dont really care what Paul Gilbert does.

[Righteous]

Holding it with only the index and thumb also frees you up to tap with the middle and also hybrid pick. I used to hold with three fingers, but I switched to two and it was awkward for a little while until I learned how to not drop the pick. Trust me, it's worth it to change to two fingers.

[dreamfullofzen]

[Paolo_Angelo]

[jasonmace]