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Its so simple but i dont get it

 
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Its so simple but i dont get it Reply with quote

Hi guys
Im watching Guthrie's version of Spain by chick corea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1JKVBypsK0) and im trying to figure out the simplest thing which any of you could probably answer...im still pretty bad with the music theory stuff.

Right in the beginning when he starts to play, theres a lick around the 26 second mark something like this:
E||--2-----------2--3--1--------||
B||-----3-----------------2-----||
G||--------4-----------------2--||
D||-----------------------------||
A||-----------------------------||
E||-----------------------------||

Why does that work? Isnt that F not in the key? It sounds like it works but I cannot figure out why. Could someone please explain it to me?
Thanks!
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Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the first line (f#, D, B) are just the 9th, 7th, and 5th. OR you could think a minor triad from the 5th of the chord. In this case being Emin7. Which is a pretty common substitution.

As far as the next line. He's really just substituting the A7+5 over the line. Nothing too wierd about that. Think of the F as a E#. The A7 chord is really an altered chord, at least how chick seems to approach, and obviously the fellowship as well.

Most dominant 7ths chords in jazz can be turned into altered chords while improvising. Or even while comping as long as there is not another comping instrument playing at the same time. (especially in big bands).

All but two notes are pretty safe to use over dominant chords I've found, well depending on the situation, but especially when there is just a bass player.

For example A7

I usually think: R, 3, 5, b7, b9, 9, #9, #11, b13, 13. A, C#, E, G, Bb,B, B#, D#, F, F#. Which leaves out only the 4th and natural 7. Which are pretty bad. But then really every note is safe.

I hope this helps and does not confuse.

Cheers,

Tim
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Mirth, thanks for the reply. Im slowly grasping this stuff...but I still have to think about it a lot. A few more questions though: What is an A7+5? Doesnt A7 have a 5th in it? Also what is an altered chord, and when can/should you use it?
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dreamfullofzen



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shapiro wrote:
Hey Mirth, thanks for the reply. Im slowly grasping this stuff...but I still have to think about it a lot. A few more questions though: What is an A7+5? Doesnt A7 have a 5th in it? Also what is an altered chord, and when can/should you use it?


+5 means an Augmented 5th, which is fancy talk for saying a sharp five.

Generally as such when this happens you'll find people using the altered scale, or other interesting scales to feature the sharp five like the Whole Tone and whatnot, or simply adding the augmented 5th to their scale of choice.

also one thing to note that although a #5 and a b6 are the same note, in context.. they sound very different.. the #5 has a very ominous unsettling feeling to it... whereas the b6 has a sad vibe (the love story theme).

I haven't thought about or touched this stuff in ages...geez...lots of dust and cobwebs i need to get rid of... Laughing
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamfullofzen wrote:

also one thing to note that although a #5 and a b6 are the same note, in context.. they sound very different.. the #5 has a very ominous unsettling feeling to it... whereas the b6 has a sad vibe (the love story theme).


interesting! id like to hear an example of this somehow
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dreamfullofzen



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shapiro wrote:
dreamfullofzen wrote:

also one thing to note that although a #5 and a b6 are the same note, in context.. they sound very different.. the #5 has a very ominous unsettling feeling to it... whereas the b6 has a sad vibe (the love story theme).


interesting! id like to hear an example of this somehow


well you could always try it yourself.... Laughing

i kid i kid

some quick and rough examples (excuse the playing, this are for example purposes...not releasin an album of this stuff!)

b6 sad context - http://media.putfile.com/Ab6-example-1---sad

#5 "out there" context - http://media.putfile.com/Ab6-example-1---out-there
Disclaimer: i don't play this kind of stuff at all so forgive me...

It's the same case as the #4/b5... #4 is the Key note to lydian, a dreamy happy and inspiring mode.... whereas the b5 is the dark and evil note.... albet they're the same note.......it's all down to context and implied use...

anyways, here's the backing tracks i made to those examples for you to try it out yourself..

http://media.putfile.com/Ab6-backing
http://media.putfile.com/Ab6-backing-2

have fun
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really really cool. Thank you so much for doing that! Your playing is very good.


Now my question is how do you get that note to sound different in each of those situations, even though it is the same note? Are you playing the #5 and a natural 6 in one, and then a natural 5 and b6 in the other? And how are you getting that tone? it sounds great!
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dreamfullofzen



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it' okay, i have a fair bit of free time on my hands around this time of year..

Boy....you sure do ask allot of questions....... Laughing

In the "sad" one, i go from the b6 to a regular 5th...basically using the minor scale for improv there and using the b6 (an F in this case) often...

for the out there one... i basically used whole tone concepts mostly (which i suck at..) so basically A B C# D# F G , whole tone scale, and then use regular minor scale on the change....

Basically like i said, it's Context that's making the notes different... first off, the harmony behind them is different. If you have power chords, you're free of 3rds and sevenths and are free to imply any harmony...whereas here, the harmony has been set by the chords in use... all i did was outline them by playing the right notes (well in the sad one...i was all over the place on the weirder one...) Just download the backing tracks and go to town...

One thing i used to do allot is jam over a drone.... i'd set a pad sound with a root and fifth... and just play around the modes and arpeggios and chords tones... to get a better idea of what notes to play...and what notes Not to play.... Laughing Developing your aural perception is very important to improvising and being able to play comfortably...

I talked with guthrie once about improvising and he asked me "do i know what it sounds like in my head before i play it?" and basically that's what it boils down to....knowing what you're playing, as opposed to running scales and hoping for the best. Basically just keep playing and improvising....over everything and anything.......blues, jazz, modal stuff, rock, country.......it's all good.

As for the Tone.....i could tell you..........but then i'd have to kill you..... Laughing
(It's the amp sim plugin GR2........Prepare to die!!!) Wink
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for putting up with me and answering my questions! Now its up to me to apply all of this advice to my playing

Gavin
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dreamfullofzen



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shapiro wrote:
Thanks for putting up with me and answering my questions! Now its up to me to apply all of this advice to my playing

Gavin


ha, man no problem... talking/teaching is allot of fun, mosly because it allows to think about stuff that i haven't in awhile that should.... i was struggling to remember that the whole tone was a 6 note scale and the exact notes without my guitar.... Rolling Eyes

main thing is to play man, and develop a solid foundation.....walk before you run as they say....

have fun
Wink
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mirth wrote:
the first line (f#, D, B) are just the 9th, 7th, and 5th. OR you could think a minor triad from the 5th of the chord. In this case being Emin7. Which is a pretty common substitution.

As far as the next line. He's really just substituting the A7+5 over the line. Nothing too wierd about that. Think of the F as a E#. The A7 chord is really an altered chord, at least how chick seems to approach, and obviously the fellowship as well.

Most dominant 7ths chords in jazz can be turned into altered chords while improvising. Or even while comping as long as there is not another comping instrument playing at the same time. (especially in big bands).

All but two notes are pretty safe to use over dominant chords I've found, well depending on the situation, but especially when there is just a bass player.

For example A7

I usually think: R, 3, 5, b7, b9, 9, #9, #11, b13, 13. A, C#, E, G, Bb,B, B#, D#, F, F#. Which leaves out only the 4th and natural 7. Which are pretty bad. But then really every note is safe.

I hope this helps and does not confuse.

Cheers,

Tim


Im looking back on this stuff and trying to figure it out, and the one thing I am still in awe at is how people can do this instantly, during a song, over a chord change. I can barely understand stuff like this without writing it out on paper. Is there something I'm missing? or just the years of experience I lack?
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dreamfullofzen



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shapiro wrote:


Im looking back on this stuff and trying to figure it out, and the one thing I am still in awe at is how people can do this instantly, during a song, over a chord change. I can barely understand stuff like this without writing it out on paper. Is there something I'm missing? or just the years of experience I lack?


hey shapiro..

been awhile eh? hope the playings coming along.

It boils down to years of experience and musical vocabulary. there was a cool audio interview posted recently with scott henderson and kinsey, and scott talks about that interestingly. Basically you learn that stuff and it gets stored away.. and when you hear it you kinda play it without having to think about it... allot of times it's kinda like a reaction thing.. basically you just gotta keep playing... and play all sorts of stuff... if you improv over just rock.. you'll be a great rock player.. but that's about it.. gotta keep it fresh and just play and play....

main thing is to develop improvisational freedom.. so it reaches a point where you're not thinking scales or chords, but phrases and lines.. and you know how they're going to sound before you play them or as you're playing them.. it's not as hard as it sounds.. it just requires allot of playing.

Smile
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