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Pentatonic scales
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BostonJohn



Joined: 04 Jun 2006
Posts: 23
Location: Clinton CT

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Pentatonic scales Reply with quote

Staring to write my own songs and when it comes time to learning scales I get very bored!

I like to play by ear and it has worked out ok until now...

I will be sitting in with a Guitarist who want;s me to play a 12 bar blues progression in the key of my choice....

Any tips to help an old DOG learn new tricks???


Thank you,
John Denner
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JasonK



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey John,

As far as tips, I would recommend just putting the time in, learning your scales and modes, and learn the notes all over the entire neck. Also learn as much as you can about chords, and be able to play inversions of them all over the neck.

The idea is to find a way to do it that interests you, so it doesn't feel like a chore. There really are no shortcuts, but learning the neck will completely open up new avenues for you with your playing and songwriting, and when you combine this with your ability to play by ear, you'll get much closer to the ideas you have in your head, and be able to get them out of the instrument. Smile
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BostonJohn



Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Of course! Reply with quote

Sometimes an easy FIX is what your looking for!

Thank you!
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonK wrote:
As far as tips, I would recommend just putting the time in, learning your scales and modes, and learn the notes all over the entire neck. Also learn as much as you can about chords, and be able to play inversions of them all over the neck.


I disagree... I really disagree.... I vehemently (really) disagree. Learn intervals. If know intervals you know enough to piece together the melodies/harmonies you can hear in your head: THAT IS YOUR MUSIC.

If you sit there programming scales into your head your music will become scales - the thoughts and vernacular peculiar to you, the idiosyncrasies will be lost under the wash of CAGED patterns, 3 note per string patterns, Mickey Baker's Jazz Chords, Guitar Grimoire outré scales and other such gumph that is peddled to boost your playing or make you the guitarist you always should'a been - Charles Atlas in just seven days I'll make you a man adverts in the back of old comics - nonsense (and I felt like saying bullshit).

I've gone the route of learning the scales and the modes and the chords and the inversions (I wanted to hyphenate the whole sentence there because it seems preprogrammed into so many people's brains it comes out in one breath). It ain't the way.

Scales, Chords, Music Theory are all "how" - if you want to write the tune "My wife is chewing my ear off again-Blues" you aren't going to turn to page 59 of All-the-scales-you'll-ever-need and find the nagging wife dominant scale or the diminished-responsibility chord to accompany it.

There are books that explain the "why" of these Guthrie's books explain playing chord tones over a change and following the changes. Ted Greene's modern chord progressions is a lovely book with melodic chord progressions that inveigle their way in between ii and Vs or before V and Is and soon become part of your repertoire.

I think through the help of watching Joe Pass videos I've finally come to understand what Wayne Krantz is saying in Improvisers OS, and I don't need my copy back to make use of that.

If this has got your hackles up, then good Wink
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

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Last edited by frankus on Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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JasonK



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Location: United States

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:
JasonK wrote:
As far as tips, I would recommend just putting the time in, learning your scales and modes, and learn the notes all over the entire neck. Also learn as much as you can about chords, and be able to play inversions of them all over the neck.


I disagree... I really disagree.... I vehemently (really) disagree. Learn intervals. If know intervals you know enough to piece together the melodies/harmonies you can hear in your head: THAT IS YOUR MUSIC.

If you sit there programming scales into your head your music will become scales - ...


Actually my post would imply that knowing the neck and being able to play chord inversions everywhere would also lead to knowing intervals. ( I also don't recall suggesting the CAGED approach.)

If your playing sounds like nothing but scales, that sounds like a personal problem. It becomes tiring to hear the of-mentioned rants of people that are afraid to learn because it will hurt their playing. Are you suggesting that people shouldn't know the neck? That's analogous to a writer being quasi-literate for fear of losing their "idiosyncracies."

I don't suffer from not being able to separate scales from melodies and the people that buy my CD, and the people that have reviewed it and the professional musicians that have commented on my music don't seem to think so either.

I was wondering how long it would take for a pedantic, self-styled know-it-all to scribble out a response in here.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Pentatonic scales Reply with quote

BostonJohn wrote:
Staring to write my own songs and when it comes time to learning scales I get very bored!


Tis cos they're boring. People say; learn A minor all over the neck... in the piece of music you'll maybe play A minor for 2 bars at a time... how over the neck can you get and remain melodic?

BostonJohn wrote:
I like to play by ear and it has worked out ok until now...


Your ears dropped off? Laughing

BostonJohn wrote:
I will be sitting in with a Guitarist who want;s me to play a 12 bar blues progression in the key of my choice....


I prefer playing in Bb, C or Eb: fewer accidentals and able to fit in with horns so a lot of cool tunes from the 30s are in those keys. So Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, Rodgers and Hart or Rodgers and Hammerstein stuff is all in easy reach... and some of it's really nice stuff to be inspired by.

12 Bar blues is often played with a Dominant chord for each of the chords so in Bb that's Bb7 | " | Eb7 | " | Bb7 | " | " | " | F7 | ....

This is good because it gives more movement than just playing the chords of the key (diatonic chords) Bb maj, Eb maj and F7... it also means you can go for the same sounds over each chord.

Best notes for
Bb7: Bb D F Ab,
Eb7: Eb G, Bb Db,
F7: F A C Eb

Now if you use that old pentatonic minor scale for each of them so Bb pentatonic minor over Bb7 (find the minor thirds and bend them up a semitone) the rest is all chord tones and you get the 9th thrown in for free.

Each of these chords has a function:

The I chord (Bb7) is where there is a really strong pull toward: you'll hear a lot of bluesers trill from the minor to major third ( Db to D and on and on for a bar ;^) cos it sounds good. So you can play this as 9th chord, 11th or 13th and if you've got to play it for a long time try sliding a 13th chord up from fret down it's like a gospel sound.

The IV chord (Eb7) is known as the static dominant (meaning it doesn't go anywhere much) everyone (EVERYONE plays the major scale here with a raised 4th and flat seventh (Lydian Dominant - think theme tune to the Simpsons) but really play what you like (still using that pentatonic minor pattern) and when you play the next chord slide it all up a whole-step and play it again. A lot of people play the Eb7#11 here, just don't do it to death Wink

The V chord (F7) known as a functioning dominant chord you can play really ugly stuff here and it won't matter because it goes back to the root chord (with it's strong pull) think of it like a really scary horror story with an ending: 'but it was all a dream'.. People will mutter altered scale or super-locrian scale here, but really Emily Remler had it right here: it's the melodic minor scale played a semitone up; so play G major with a flat 3rd. Playing chords try making this one an F7b9 or F7b11 for a bluesey feel... also consider throwing in a Cminor chord just before it, noone will tell you off Wink

BostonJohn wrote:
Any tips to help an old DOG learn new tricks???


At all stages, enjoy what you do. Perhaps listen to a few more players to get ideas from. It's tricky because while you want to teach an old dog new tricks... you don't want to teach yer grandma to suck eggs ... explain a bit more perhaps, John. This forum has some particularly fine teachers and players on it and I'm sure they'll be glad to help based on a better understanding of where you are and where you want to be Wink
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Wickedpicker



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 84
Location: Oklahoma, U.S.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:
JasonK wrote:
As far as tips, I would recommend just putting the time in, learning your scales and modes, and learn the notes all over the entire neck. Also learn as much as you can about chords, and be able to play inversions of them all over the neck.


I disagree... I really disagree.... I vehemently (really) disagree. Learn intervals. If know intervals you know enough to piece together the melodies/harmonies you can hear in your head: THAT IS YOUR MUSIC.

If you sit there programming scales into your head your music will become scales - the thoughts and vernacular peculiar to you, the idiosyncrasies will be lost under the wash of CAGED patterns, 3 note per string patterns, Mickey Baker's Jazz Chords, Guitar Grimoire outré scales and other such gumph that is peddled to boost your playing or make you the guitarist you always should'a been - Charles Atlas in just seven days I'll make you a man adverts in the back of old comics - nonsense (and I felt like saying bullshit).

I've gone the route of learning the scales and the modes and the chords and the inversions (I wanted to hyphenate the whole sentence there because it seems preprogrammed into so many people's brains it comes out in one breath). It ain't the way.

Scales, Chords, Music Theory are all "how" - if you want to write the tune "My wife is chewing my ear off again-Blues" you aren't going to turn to page 59 of All-the-scales-you'll-ever-need and find the nagging wife dominant scale or the diminished-responsibility chord to accompany it.

There are books that explain the "why" of these Guthrie's books explain playing chord tones over a change and following the changes. Ted Greene's modern chord progressions is a lovely book with melodic chord progressions that inveigle their way in between ii and Vs or before V and Is and soon become part of your repertoire.

I think through the help of watching Joe Pass videos I've finally come to understand what Wayne Krantz is saying in Improvisers OS, and I don't need my copy back to make use of that.

If this has got your hackles up, then good Wink


what he said. I've been there and can tell you that breaking free of scales can be really difficult if you spend too much time at developing speed. You begin to hear scales in you head when your listening to music and your improv will reflect this. I didn't have Joe Pass videos but his recordings amazing learning material.
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JasonK



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wickedpicker wrote:
frankus wrote:
JasonK wrote:
As far as tips, I would recommend just putting the time in, learning your scales and modes, and learn the notes all over the entire neck. Also learn as much as you can about chords, and be able to play inversions of them all over the neck.


I disagree... I really disagree.... I vehemently (really) disagree. Learn intervals. If know intervals you know enough to piece together the melodies/harmonies you can hear in your head: THAT IS YOUR MUSIC.

If you sit there programming scales into your head your music will become scales - the thoughts and vernacular peculiar to you, the idiosyncrasies will be lost under the wash of CAGED patterns, 3 note per string patterns, Mickey Baker's Jazz Chords, Guitar Grimoire outré scales and other such gumph that is peddled to boost your playing or make you the guitarist you always should'a been - Charles Atlas in just seven days I'll make you a man adverts in the back of old comics - nonsense (and I felt like saying bullshit).

I've gone the route of learning the scales and the modes and the chords and the inversions (I wanted to hyphenate the whole sentence there because it seems preprogrammed into so many people's brains it comes out in one breath). It ain't the way.

Scales, Chords, Music Theory are all "how" - if you want to write the tune "My wife is chewing my ear off again-Blues" you aren't going to turn to page 59 of All-the-scales-you'll-ever-need and find the nagging wife dominant scale or the diminished-responsibility chord to accompany it.

There are books that explain the "why" of these Guthrie's books explain playing chord tones over a change and following the changes. Ted Greene's modern chord progressions is a lovely book with melodic chord progressions that inveigle their way in between ii and Vs or before V and Is and soon become part of your repertoire.

I think through the help of watching Joe Pass videos I've finally come to understand what Wayne Krantz is saying in Improvisers OS, and I don't need my copy back to make use of that.

If this has got your hackles up, then good Wink


what he said. I've been there and can tell you that breaking free of scales can be really difficult if you spend too much time at developing speed. You begin to hear scales in you head when your listening to music and your improv will reflect this. I didn't have Joe Pass videos but his recordings amazing learning material.


Does no one here possess reading comprehension? I didn't say one thing about speed nor did I allude to it.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonK wrote:
Does no one here possess reading comprehension? I didn't say one thing about speed nor did I allude to it.


Rolling Eyes if you read BostonJohn's post you'll notice he talks about blues.. yet you tell him to learn his scales and modes like a good little robot. Blues can pretty much be hung off dorian and mixolydian with perhaps lydian dominant or super-locrian mode ffor jazz blues. 4 modes.. and a little application.

I don't really think you are in a position to get on your high horse about reading people's responses. Someone asks about blues and you say they'd better go and learn everything about the guitar Rolling Eyes what? like Son House did? or Albert Collins?

What you did is analogous of:

Hi I want to learn some Spanish to get by on holiday.. anyone got any suggestions?

Yes, learn Latin it's the source of all romance languages and it'll make it easier for you to learn French, Italian and Romanian too.. When you've learn Latin then study Spanish also learn as much as you can about their culture from Wikipedia.

Your stuff on youtube seems pretty melodic... why not talk specifics about that rather than chucking the book at the guy?
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Wickedpicker



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
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Location: Oklahoma, U.S.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:16 am    Post subject: peace Reply with quote

Jason, i wasn't attacking you or really even commenting on your quote. When I got serious about playing, everyone suggested A: Learn to read music and B: master the scales and modes then develop your speed, not to play fast but to train fingering. I too am an ear player and following that advice really frustrated my playing.

I hear/feel rythm changes and melodic runs when I listen to music. I found for me, I was money ahead to simply listen to a broader range of players and improvise lines in my head as I listened. I found that my ideas would begin to borrow from those players. I would then sit at the guitar and hunt the stuff I heard in my head. Thats how I learned the neck. I'll admit there is still a lot of mystery to the instrument for me after over 20 years of playing but that's only bothered me when I'm talking music with knowlegable players. Has never hurt me playing.

This guy is a minor pent player and plays by ear. Sounded like me so chimed in with broaden your listening to blue jazz players and find some runs that turn you on. No offense.
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JasonK



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^
^
First of all Frankus, this has nothing to do with getting on a "high horse." You could have exercised some civility and if you felt you had something different /better to offer, could have done so without the sardonic comments toward me, acting like the all-knowing guitar guru, and (supposedly) refuting everything I said. Obviously I'm going to respond to that as anyone would.

Wickedpicker, since a portion of my text was included in your quote, I responded to you as well.

I'm sure we all have better things to do than argue and that none of us come to the forum to do so, at least I know I don't.

It's up to the original poster that posted the question to decide for himself which advice to take or to *gasp* incorporate information from all of our posts(!)

I'm more than happy to agree to disagree, without having to disrespect the advice that other players give, and to engage in musical discussion with you guys in the future. If not, that's fine too.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonK wrote:
I'm more than happy to agree to disagree, without having to disrespect the advice that other players give


Yeah, I got that impression Wink

JasonK wrote:
I was wondering how long it would take for a pedantic, self-styled know-it-all to scribble out a response in here.


I'm not going to apologize for poking at you, I'm not a guitar guru, and I don't think of myself as one; you inferred that. You also took offense when I just dangled out an invitation to 'take it'. It might be idle trolling, but I was curious.

Maybe I could've got by without ruffling your feathers as much, but I had a hunch it'd be an exothermic reaction, so now I understand you a little better... I just hope the pyrotechnics didn't dazzle our friend Yoda. Wink
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liquidtension



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the real struggle is putting anything rehearsed into practice, whether it is scales up and down the neck or different varieties of intervals. In reality, anything that is rehearsed becomes a pattern, even if it is alternating 6ths and 3rds mixed with upper and lower neighbors. But my point isn't to debate semantics. Rather, I want to note how much of a struggle it is to put whatever is practiced into a live situation without sounding rehearsed...the opposite of what you did to learn those scales or intervals in the first place.

I guess I don't see the issue as all that black-and-white. There's always that "okay, now that I've done that, I have a new musical struggle" question. For example, say a person learns intervals. Putting it into practice by jamming over songs isn't automatic (not that anyone said it was...rather, I think this is often overlooked). So, the implementation of what was recently practiced seems to work its way into your playing in a rather predictable manner. Removing the predictability is almost as hard as learning the new material. And it's not enough to say 'go learn a few standards' either. Even if someone works through Aebersold's II-V7-I patterns exhaustively, he is still playing patterns. Is it merely a matter of having such a vast musical vocabulary that the combination of ideas is no longer recognizable as a pattern?

I think the topic is a lot more abstract that is commonly recognized, which makes it a lot harder to nail down in words.

I think it would be very beneficial to have a very detailed and specific interview with a guitarist like Guthrie that really draws out the minor details and struggles of working out these aspects in their own playing...but maybe this is too idealistic.

As I was recently transcribing a section of one of the solos Erotic Cakes, I was amazed to see how many 'patterns' Guthrie used without sounding like patterns.
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loiking



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does no one here possess reading comprehension? I didn't say one thing about speed nor did I allude to it.

neither did they allude to you alluding to it. sorry to jump on the bandwagon but i felt like adding that in Wink
and calling our good friend frankus a
Quote:
pedantic, self-styled know-it-all to scribble out a response in here.

was a bit harsh Exclamation
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liquidtension



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Any tips to help an old DOG learn new tricks???


I would take a two-fold approach. First, get through the gig and use it as incentive to push yourself further for the next time around. Spend equal amounts of time listening, playing, and transcribing some other 12-bar blues, while also making sure your basic chops are down. I wouldn't really focus on leaping mountains for an imminent gig.

Second, after you get through this initial sit-in, structure a well-balanced practice routine within whatever time limitations you have. As a starting point, I would recommend the following:

1. Scales, Patterns, and Intervals - Give equal time for each. Some of the best ways to pick up new patterns is to transcribe someone else's playing. And don't just focus on the technical side of being able to play a particular scale/pattern/interval exercise at a particular speed; keep your ears as active as your hands. Also, consider playing over at least a drone chord so you can hear the melody-harmony relationship. Try to add new patterns each week.

2. Apply the patterns over standard progressions - Start with something simple such as a II-V7-I progression and use the stuff you've learned from #1. Focus on accenting chord tones. That will really make your solos feel 'locked in' rather than just an arbitrary series of notes that work just because you are in the right key.

3. Transcribing - You really can't say too much about transcribing. I've neglected this for a good 90% of the time I've played guitar. However, from the little time I've spent transcribing recently, I can say it has been one of the most eye-opening and educational experiences. Just make sure you have a good program to slow down the music. I've been using Magix Music Studio 10 (a full multi-tracking program with good time stretching features. Version 10 is only like $15 on Amazon.com).

4. Focus on 'Things that Create Interest' - Download and print out Aebersold's list off things that create interest from http://www.jazzbooks.com/miva/documents/handbook/26_things_that_create_interest.pdf and keep it where you can see it every time you pick up the guitar. Though I would not encourage becoming a rigid 'lick' player, but try to write some licks according to each item/category on this list. For example, spend some of your practice time creating a certain number of licks that emphasize sequence. Next time try creating licks that focus on rhythmic variation, especially ones that seem to be in tension with the background music. Eventually you will want to get to a point where using these 'Things that Create Interest' naturally in your own music as a part of your natural expression on the instrument.

5. Learn a song - Dedicate a part of your practice time to working toward learning an entire song. Focus on bits and pieces, perhaps just working out half of a verse during one practice session, then the second half of a verse during the next. Go at whatever pace is comfortable to you.

6. Jam and have fun! - This is your time to release from all the previous structure and just play whatever comes to mind. At times you'll feel rehearsed and predictable, at least when you go to implement new licks you've learned, but as your musical vocabulary expands, it'll sound more natural.

I think it is key to make each part of your practice session focused and to-the-point. Spending 10-20 minutes on each section will be plenty of time to cover the material, but without sounding as if you are becoming a programmed player.

Anyway, there's a lot more that can be said, but I hope that helps and gets you started.
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