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Some simple theory help please

 
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:48 pm    Post subject: Some simple theory help please Reply with quote

Hi, Noobie question here. I am trying to learn how to solo through key changes, but I need some help understanding what works for certain chords. Im having a few conflicts between what I thought was correct, and what sounds correct. Here's Spain, for example:

Gmaj7 - Gmajor works. Lydian sounds better though, why is that?
F#7 - I thought for a dominant you were supposed to use Mixo, but phrygian dominant sounds better. Why is this?
Em7 - e minor works, but dorian sounds better. Why?
A7 - A mixo, or altered (which I think mean you can add a #5, or a flat/sharp 9 to the mixo scale, please correct me if I am wrong)
Dmaj7 - D major
Gmaj7 - G major
C#7 - for some reason C# locrian, phygian, and mixo all seem to sound like they fit. Why does that work?
F#7 - Phrygian and Mixo seem to work.
Bm - minor
B7 - Mixo/altered

So I am a little confused on some of these. Not so much as to what I should play, but more as to WHY those things work. For example why do all the dominant chords sound like different things should be played over them. I'm assuming it has to do with the context of where the chord is but thats what I dont totally understand. Hopefully someone has the answer! Thanks
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Cass679



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think about the notes that make the chords themselves:

Gmaj7 - G B D F#

G lydian would work here aswell as G major because G Lydian contains the same notes as G major, except for a #4. G Lydian - G A B C# D E F#

F#7 - F# A# C# Eb

All these notes are present in F# phrygian dominant (F#, G, A#, B, C#, D, Eb). The notes for this chord are also in F# Mixolydian.

You can do this for the rest of the chords. Certain notes from chords are present in a number of scales, so the possibilities of different sounds are quite high in number.

As to why they sound 'better', IMO its just down to individual taste. Some people prefer a dorian sound over minor chords because the major 6th doesn't sound as dark or dpressing as the minor/aeolian scale or the phrygian scale.

Hope that answers some of it. Very Happy
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Resi



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cass679 wrote:
Think about the notes that make the chords themselves:

Gmaj7 - G B D F#

G lydian would work here aswell as G major because G Lydian contains the same notes as G major, except for a #4. G Lydian - G A B C# D E F#

F#7 - F# A# C# Eb

All these notes are present in F# phrygian dominant (F#, G, A#, B, C#, D, Eb). The notes for this chord are also in F# Mixolydian.

You can do this for the rest of the chords. Certain notes from chords are present in a number of scales, so the possibilities of different sounds are quite high in number.

As to why they sound 'better', IMO its just down to individual taste. Some people prefer a dorian sound over minor chords because the major 6th doesn't sound as dark or dpressing as the minor/aeolian scale or the phrygian scale.

Hope that answers some of it. Very Happy


A reason why the lydian might sound better over Gmaj7 would be that the fifth of the next chord (F#7 - thus C#) is the #4 of G, the characteristic note of the lydian mode.

This offers smoother voice leading. It's all about tension and release.

Also, an altered chord is generally a chord (and scale) with all the alterations possible without altering the function (dominant) of the chord, thus b9,#9,#11,#5.

So basically, you could say any dominant chord with a raised fifth in its notation could be considered either an altered chord (A7alt) or a A7#4#5 chord, usually notated A7+. Over this chord the whole-tone scale is usually used. So if you see any chord with both a #5 and a b9 for example, you can be sure it's an altered chord.

This of course is part of the beauty... You can interpret it any way you like. Like Joe Pass said: there are only three families of chords: Major, Minor and Dominant. The rest is up to you.

Jazz nomenclature is quite confusing, as for example altered chords could be notated just A7alt, but also A7+9, A7#9, A7+5, A7#5 ... In general, those little bits of shorthand mean an altered chord. Then you also have the A7b9 chord, which isn't the same as an altered chord, because it only has three alterations: b9,#9,#11. Over this chord usually the half-whole diminished scale is used.

Anyway, I don't think a scalar approach is good at all for someone just learning to get through some nasty chord changes. As far as I'm concerned, everyone should learn to play with ONLY the arpeggios of the chord they're playing over first. It'll give your playing a much more structured feel, and it'll help you know where you're going. The rest of the notes can then be filled in later.
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shapiro



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are great responses, thanks for the explanations! I think my next step will be to get all the arpeggios down. Also on my list of things to do is to learn the names of all of the notes on the fretboard...
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Some simple theory help please Reply with quote

Had beers at lunchtime, so indulge me Wink

Gmaj7 / F#7 / Em7 / A7 / Dmaj7 / Gmaj / C#7 / Bm / B7

Based on that it's gotta be modal: Bm / B7?

I always see modal stuff a bit like a rug on a wood floor Laughing the key is the wood floor, the modal variation is the rug rucked up one way or another and the way relating to the cycle of fifths.

If you think of it as the key of Gmaj ( regardless of it being harmonized on a mode derived from Gmaj ) then odd chords are the rucks in the rug:

F#7 not F# alt, Dmaj7 not D7, C#7 not Cmaj, A7 not Amin and so on.

I don't know the key signature, it could be Dmaj or Cmaj, but this doesn't change:

If you work out the harmonized modes off the same root there's a pattern of what happens to a chord as it steps around

Code:

C Ionian:   Cmaj  Dm6   Emb9      Fmaj7#11 G7    Amb13     Bm7b5
C Mixo:     C7    Dmb13 Em7b5     Fmaj7    Gm6   Amb9      Bbmaj7#11
C Dorian:   Cm6   Dmb9  Ebmaj7#11 F7       Gmb13 Am7b5     Bbmaj7
C Aeolian:  Cmb13 Dm7b5 Ebmaj7    Fm6      Gmb9  Abmaj7#11 B7


If you're bored enough you can figure out the lydian, phrygian and locrian modes but there's enough there to work out this pattern:

Maj -> Maj -> 7th -> m6 -> mb13 -> mb9 -> m7b5 -> bMaj -> bMaj and so on a semitone below the original chord.

So an mb13 chord can be brightened to m6 or darkened to mb9

Those chords are implicit in the key signature so a ii chord is defined by an m6 chord (say Am6 in Gmajor) but it might be played as Am7 or Am or Am9, Am11... playing over it you can choose to point out the 6th note and work with the key.. or you can say: that Am7 is going to be an Amb9 sound in my mind... there you're exploiting the ambiguity and changing the mode of the piece -> going with or fighting the rug.

Joe Pass said he ignored the ii in a ii V I and cut straight to the V chord, as Dmin and G7 are the same notes. Leading into the G7 playing chord tones of the G7 over a Dmin creates continuity for the melody. Playing over changes often becomes playing over every change and the solo becomes increasingly transparent and "white bread" as Emily Remler called it.

A lot of early 40s jazz gets it's sound from using maj6 / min6 / dominant arpeggios .. so playing over Amin6 (in C) sound is pushing against the logical Amb13 chord... making a brighter sound... a dominant over a maj6 sounds light-hearted where a maj7 arpeggio might sound too prissy it's pushing against the 7th that's expected. So they sound right in their normal application and bright in their un-typical usage... and it's easier to get a handful of those arpeggios under your belt.

So you can play measures using the next chord, if they belong togethr in some key... and some really nice sounds come from spotting patterns that map to a melodic minor key.. 12 bar with it's A7 D7 E7 is a given D7 and E7 both living in one melodic minor so we use the modes lydian dominant and superlocrian ...

I'm rambling aren't I? Embarassed
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araides



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whoa, i've got no clue what all this means. where do i begin?
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

araides wrote:
whoa, i've got no clue what all this means. where do i begin?


Well first off, totally ignore my post (everyone else has Laughing Confused), the only reason I've not deleted it was I keep rereading it expecting it to make a bit more sense. Beer Cool

I'd suggest start by looking on google for notes on diatonic chords (chords made of the notes of a scale), then maybe look at Nashville Notation (a short hand for these chords). The stuff about non-diatonic chords is a topic generally called chord substitution (there are loads but there are a few really popular ones).

All the stuff about modes (phrygian, locrian, lydian) is based on modes, my advice is investigate BOTH derivitave and relative modes. Everyone ALWAYS plops for derivative modes and then wonder why all modes sound the same.

Hope that helps Wink
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Sutibu



Joined: 18 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you explain what derivative modes are?
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markmcg



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutibu wrote:
Can you explain what derivative modes are?


Playing modes derivatively is, say, playing/thinking G major over a C backing to create a Lydian sound. Whilst a parallel approach would be to just play C Lydian, or think in terms of the interesting/changed note being F# Smile.

Where confusion arises, as Frankus says, is when people play through C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian etc. but are essentially playing C Major all over the neck, the implied tonal centre is C. Best way to practice such things is to keep the root note constant and play say A Major, A Dorian, blah blah and *hear* the differences and each distinct flavour the respective mode has compared to the others. aka Parallel.

The Derivative approach is useful as it allows use of material already learned ( say Major scale all over the neck), but you are essentially shifting it about to create a particular sound. Now IMO that's fine to start out with over, say, fairly static modal/key harmonies as it gets you creating music quickly.

But, when things start getting more interesting with key changes/modal changes being able to effortlessly move between these modes the parallel approach removes that mental step required in the derivative method as you can just play the mode. You know the important differences between each mode and those spicy notes that nail each modal flavour.

HTH
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Sutibu



Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markmcg wrote:
Sutibu wrote:
Can you explain what derivative modes are?


Playing modes derivatively is, say, playing/thinking G major over a C backing to create a Lydian sound. Whilst a parallel approach would be to just play C Lydian, or think in terms of the interesting/changed note being F# Smile.

HTH


Ok, thanks for your reply, it clarifies alot for me. I'm assuming that when you say 'C backing' you mean the C chord rather than a piece in the C key - else the F# would conflict with F in some chords (unless it forms a higher extension, i figure).

So if i understand correctly playing over Am7 > D7 > Fmaj7 can be thought of as A dor, A dor, A aeol, or A dor, D mixo, F lydian. The former would be the derivative approach, and the latter the parallel approach?
(For me this feels like thinking in keys vs thinking in chords)
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markmcg



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're drifting into the various ways to approach soloing over particular harmony here rather than thinking in terms of how to view the modes.

Approaching the Am7 - D7 - Fmaj7 prog with A Dorian over the first two chords then the Fmaj7 with A Aeolian, is a Pitch Axis approach which is a Parallel viewpoint.

Viewing it as chords from G Major then say C Major is the Key Centre approach which is a Derivative viewpoint.

Using A Dorian, D Mixolydian and F Lydian is the chord-scale approach, treating each chord seperately, another parallel viewpoint.

IYSWIM Smile
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Time is the best Teacher, unfortunately it kills all its students
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