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Chords
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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Guthrie Govan Discussion Forum Index -> Techniques, Theory, and Musical Education
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Chilton-a-tron



Joined: 11 Feb 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phhwwar that was an intense 'discussion'... if you want to learn about harmony MissMisstreater does have a point... that you have to build up from the basics... Rome wasn't built in one day perhaps someone would say... : - ) .... for example i am currently studying music at a tertiary institution and we are going to have 3 years of 6-7 hours a week of intensive classes on harmony/aural training with one of the best lecturers in the world on the subject... and there will still be more to learn.... sure it is true not everyone will want to go that deep into how harmony/chords work but you definitely should start somewhere simple... go to your local library and get out a book on classical harmony... and just read little bits here and there and apply what you learn to your playing...
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MissMisstreater



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 327

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

also a really good idea

any books on classical harmony are fun to study, i spent most of my years at Alevel doing that. THEN when you have a good understanding of that you progress onto romantic orchestration and get to learn about extended harmony and chromatic movement

good point Chilton-atron, i forgot about that part of my studies!
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Chilton-a-tron



Joined: 11 Feb 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... and just for someones opinion... i was just looking at the progression for Fives.... and i sorta figured Am11 Am11 Am11 Am11 G#sus4add13 G#sus4add13 D#sus2add13 D#sus2add13 Am11 Am11 Am11 Am11 ... it seems to work harmonically....

Am11 (x-x-5-5-3-3)
G#sus4add13 (x-x-3-6-4-4)
D#sus2add13 (x-x-6-6-4-6)

again these are just suggested fingerings/voicings... and admit that these are perhaps not the chords guth was thinkin of but they work well...
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Travis wrote:
I appreciate you taking your time to try and help me, but I don't appreciate your latent arrogance in the delivery. You're a good example of what I didn't want in a teacher.

You didn't even touch on my initial post, or give me any chords.


I picked this comment for a reason. Hopefully to be of some help to Travis and MissMistreater.

'Confident' people have previous successes to encourage them to tackle harder problems. 'Arrogance' is a judgement we make of others. All people are drawn to make judgments when we're made to feel uncomfortable with ourselves.

Only when I stop judging others, can I stop being so self-critical (because that was the motivator behind me having to judge others - as a distraction)... now I can make mistakes and want things I might not acheive for years. (I constantly have to remind myself to stop ;^)

It's common for a good student to think their success will make them a good teacher. Everyone's emotional drivers and methods of learning are different and it takes more than aptitude to recognise and exploit these.

A successful teacher (of anything) does two things: provides a good role model and encourages students. Each of these things requires a great deal of self-awareness and awareness of others.

I really like people who want to be rhythm guitarists, I identify with it because I think it's possibly the most vital part of playing and so readily overlooked. I think there are tabs about if you need them - most likely tabbed by MissMisstreater. But it's the music score that unlocks rhythm.

I think you'll start to need music theory a lot sooner than you anticipate - but I agree (on the internet, certainly) there are people who big up their theory but that's because you can't "big up" musical ear or dexterity as easily. Hand, Ear, Head - I think that was Eric Roche's philosohpy they all have to be around the same point, so don't discount the head part or you might hold yourself back.

I reckon when Travis can say how MissMisstreater has helped him, he will be a better student. When MissMisstreater can say how Travis has helped him, he will be a better teacher.

Me? I'm just leaning on my window-sill and digging everything and ah you too ... Cool - by Travis's categogrisation I'm sophisitcated (I know the secret of Dbmsus7) and I'd been too busy feeling inadequate about not knowing Scott Henderson's melodic minor approach... or the notes on the fretboard still ... to enjoy that fact. Thanks Travis and good luck in the journey ;^) now to check out those chords at lunch and follow Mark on twitter: http://twitter.com/mastertheguitar you say?
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MissMisstreater



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 327

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chilton-a-tron wrote:
... and just for someones opinion... i was just looking at the progression for Fives.... and i sorta figured Am11 Am11 Am11 Am11 G#sus4add13 G#sus4add13 D#sus2add13 D#sus2add13 Am11 Am11 Am11 Am11 ... it seems to work harmonically....

Am11 (x-x-5-5-3-3)
G#sus4add13 (x-x-3-6-4-4)
D#sus2add13 (x-x-6-6-4-6)

again these are just suggested fingerings/voicings... and admit that these are perhaps not the chords guth was thinkin of but they work well...


i dont liek how Big an confusing those chord names are

going for a sus 2 add 13 chord implys the

1 4 5 6....

and in theory although that is correct, i wouldnt say the G# is the tonic...infact id say its an Ab and is the b3 in a m7#5 chord

Fm7#5 - 1 b3 #5 b7

just looks alot more harmonicly defined to me

then again, its the notes that count, and i love the voicing you got for it!
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Chilton-a-tron



Joined: 11 Feb 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah actually now that you mention it would be Fm7#5.... and before you realise it, it was actually supposed to be a C#sus2add13 not D# root : - ) little typo there... or however you would write that?

... cheers
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MissMisstreater



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 327

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, i was going to have a long hard think about that C# chord

from what i can see its of lydian tonality, keeping it diatonic with the previous chord

but at the same time it has that real inoffensive suspended quality to it

this is where theory shoots us all in the foot as the most LOGICAL name for the chord is a 3d inversion m11 chord (Bbm11/Ab) and that really rings true when you take that lovely voicing your gave us and put the note on the high e onto the low E....

but it just doesnt SOUND like a m11 does it?! lol

i toyed around with the progression a bit, and i found that if you treat that last chord as though there was a C# root then introduce the #11 you get this lovely voicing

C#sus(#11) (x-x-6-6-4-3)

when you alternate between your voicing and that one suddenly the progression loses some of its ambiguity (although the #11 is a lovely mysterious sound!)

what do you think?
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Chilton-a-tron



Joined: 11 Feb 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i would say more dorian than lydian but it is hard to tell... but I'm liking the Bb being the root... but it sounds like c# in the bassline... i think... but either can work and it really comes down to being different colours to the music i suppose... and yeah that #11 adds a nice touch...

... oh yes and thanks frankus for your wise words Smile
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Travis



Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

digitalkettle wrote:
Travis wrote:
You didn't even touch on my initial post, or give me any chords.


'Teach a man to fish' dude Wink

How about the intro to 'Fives':
Am11 (x-x-5-5-3-3)

Or the basic chords to the main progression in 'Wonderful Slippery Thing':
Bm7 (7-9-7-7-7-7)
D7 (10-12-10-11-10-10)
Gmaj7 (x-10-12-11-12-10)
F#7 (x-9-11-9-11-12)

*all fingerings are mere suggestions

Btw, take it easy on the regulars...you only just got here!
Both the other posters in this thread do a respectable amount of Guthrie transcription work...you might need them someday Cool


Thank you very much!
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Rei Arthur Pendragon



Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I hear, the chords you guys are discussing are :

For the song fives, it's Am11 Fm11 and C#7+(this one prolly with one or two color tones added, I don´t have the guitar here right now to check.

Soloing :
On the Am he goes dorian
on Fm dorian and sometimes eolian
and finally he goes Lydian on C#.

For the song Wonderful Slippery thing, the basic chords are
Bm7; Dadd9(not D7 dominant, if he where to put a 7th he would go major seventh, to keep diatonic); G7+; F#Altered Dominant (sometimes he plays diminished coming from the major third here, or augmented from this interval too)
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MissMisstreater



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 327

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh and another nice progression to play over is eric

cmaj9-Ebamj7

the 2nd verse is

cmaj9 - Ebmaj7 - Cmaj9 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj9 - Bbmaj7 - Dbmaj#11 - Cm6 - Abmaj7

the chords behind the tapping section are

Ddim7 - Cmin - Fdim7 - Ebmaj - Fdim7 - Abmaj

of course there is alot more going on. but i cant be bothered to trawl through my transcription and write it all here.

but it gives you a nice starting point
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digitalkettle



Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 132
Location: Lincolnshire, UK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rei Arthur Pendragon wrote:

For the song Wonderful Slippery thing, the basic chords are
Bm7; Dadd9(not D7 dominant, if he where to put a 7th he would go major seventh, to keep diatonic); G7+; F#Altered Dominant (sometimes he plays diminished coming from the major third here, or augmented from this interval too)


First off, if you're getting the vibe of this thread, I was trying NOT to bamboozle the OP with talk of augmented chords and alt-doms.

Secondly, as per GG's transcription in Guitar Techniques (April 2005), the progression is Bm7 D9 Gmaj7 F#alt.
Note, that's a dominant 9...he doesn't have to 'keep diatonic': this is not a vanilla chord progression.

Try playing the D with a major 7th...that's not what is going on here...it doesn't feel right.

Finally, are you sure you don't mean Gmaj7 when you write 'G7+'?
An augmented dominant 7th feels really awkward Confused
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MissMisstreater



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 327

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well pointed out

also, if you were wanting to keep the progression diatonic...thenitCOULDNT be a Gaugmented could it Wink

so here are 2 different chord "roadmaps" for you travis to play with

Bm7 (x 2 x 2 3 2)
D9 (x 5 4 5 5 x )
Gmaj7 (3 x 4 4 3 x)
F#7#5 (2 x 2 3 3 x)

and (low notes in brackets id omit when playing)

Bm9 ((7) x 7 7 7 9)
D9 ((10) x 10 11 10 12)
Gmaj7 (x 10 x 11 12 10)
F#7#5#9 (x 9 8 9 10 10)

again these are just two of about 500000000000000000000 ways of navigating through the changes, but a great start
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BIOS



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 45
Location: Inside your Piano

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Travis you may be unwilling now given the previous "tension" in the thread [Pls Forgive the pun] but it would help if you let people know your current level of theory so that one could recommend suitable learning material. E.g Books you have worked from or currently doing so and concepts you understand and at what point it gets confusing.

In reference to your initial point i understand where you are coming from. Theory when presented in an esoteric fashion helps no-one and can be very off-putting in the early studies of a musician. I know many musicians who were adversely affected in this way and completely blocked out any theory beyond that required to play simple blues progressions for instance. Whether this hindered their musical development or not of course is debatable and for another time. [i'm aware i said adversely Razz]

I could recommend materials for you but will wait until i know more about your current level. Jumping into classical harmony for instance can be tricky if you are uninitiated in certain fundamentals. Plus its hard to know where to begin as its done by historic periods and if you arent aware of the specific styles you could find yourself beginning with the most complex of materials which often will break rules you read elsewhere and can get very messy [e.g late romantic harmony]. Plus Classical Harmony follows different rules to those in Jazz in certain situations and this can cause confusion. I know it did for me in my early theory classes.

As for earlier disagreements, i can understand where both posters were coming from but i'm sure if you post your opinions without resorting to name calling, your opinions, whether people agree or not, will be all the more valued as with any good forum community. Just my two cents, not taking sides here. Hope this topic becomes a positive learning place for you.

BIOS
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Rei Arthur Pendragon



Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

digitalkettle

You kind of got my intentions wrong. Not trying to "bamboozle" whatever that means ahahah. On the WST I was trying to explain what he sometimes plays over F#7.

YES G7+ = Gmaj7 in my country(Brazil). Sorry, but there was this translation stuff I didn't take into account.

I put that augmented and diminished into "( )" cause it's like on the Fives explanation I did before, when he soloes over F#7 he plays sometimes Bb diminished or augmented (to give tension), as an improvisation tool. Was a soloing thing I saw him doing when playing this song LIVE, sorry I should have explained. That's why i put into ( ), ready carefully my post again and you ll see.

I didn't had the guitar in my lap at that time, I was just hearing the songs on the PC so I guess I fucked up on the D9 stuff Smile. Sorry guys, I was just trying to help... better shut up next time.

PS : Travis, if you feel confused I can edit and fix my previous post.


Last edited by Rei Arthur Pendragon on Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:02 pm; edited 3 times in total
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