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Where does Guthrie's tone come from?
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I'm offering up an alternative view is simply this: I'm concerned younger guitarists reading this thread may perceive "tone" (tm) as being more important than I think it is, and it could be a source of procrastination or anxiety - for this reason I'm pushing back against this mild form of idolatry and temporarily discounting my love of Suhr guitars, Cornford amps and my enjoyment of Guthrie's sound to make the point: "make music not judgements!". I've decided which message I think is the most important.

"Tone" is a nice to have, nothing more and I am not looking to be convinced otherwise. If someone I'd never met critiqued my tone I'd probably laugh at them - why do they think I want their advice? Why do they think they matter to me? Why do they think they know what I am striving for? I see arrogance as their impediment and they're distracting themselves from their flaw by creating judgments to try to make me doubt myself - but I could be wrong, the important thing is my own feeling of well-being.

I recall Joe Pass saying he went straight to the P.A. simply because there was less to carry around - I think the philosophy is 'in a bad room with a bad sound engineer you'll sound bad whatever - and those days will happen, if you accept it your playing isn't going to collapse'.

I am happy with music being a collection of notes or tones. I think a musician should play the music and shape the notes and reach out to an audience, engineers tweak with the sound. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of chasing tone at the expense of making music - it seems to be a different hobby from being a musician and expressing yourself through music.

I think it's very important to put "tone" into context.

I'm not looking to have all our opinions reconciled, we're all individuals and I think it's important to respect those differences. I have my voice and you have yours Wink
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BIOS



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 45
Location: Inside your Piano

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:
The reason I'm offering up an alternative view is simply this: I'm concerned younger guitarists reading this thread may perceive "tone" (tm) as being more important than I think it is,


Lol Freudian slip?

I think as long as the subject is expressed with adequate arguments that posters believe than the duty to young guitar players is fulfilled.


frankus wrote:

"Tone" is a nice to have, nothing more and I am not looking to be convinced otherwise.


This response is not an attempt at trying to convince you of anything. It is merely that, a response to the viewpoint you have expressed. To say that tone is nothing more than a "nice thing to have" is an outrageous assertion unless you are speaking about your own situation as a musician. If that's the case then i wont even attempt a response. It's like me saying syncopation is a nice thing to have but for me it's about pitch. Technically im perfectly entitled to think that. It's when you start saying things like that as objective statements that your assertions will be challenged as they are based on more than your own experiences and personal context as a musician.


frankus wrote:

If someone I'd never met critiqued my tone I'd probably laugh at them - why do they think I want their advice? Why do they think they matter to me? Why do they think they know what I am striving for? I see arrogance as their impediment and they're distracting themselves from their flaw by creating judgments to try to make me doubt myself - but I could be wrong, the important thing is my own feeling of well-being.


Well most people in a position of knowledge [and many who arent Razz] feel it a positive thing to impart knowledge onto others. TBH if i was in the situation outlined above i'd appreciate it. I mean it's potentially advice that could make you a better player and a better musician and if it turns out not to be at least you can clarify your own choices for the sound you use. To me it sound's like you have drawn a line in the sand as far as "tone" goes and simply don't want to learn anymore about it. Just my two cents.

frankus wrote:

I am happy with music being a collection of notes or tones.


That is of course your choice, but in that choice you are choosing the block out so many wonderful musical experiences.

You can't separate tone from pitch physically anyway. The have a joint existence. Pitch is the period of the wave form and tone is the wave forms distinct shape. I think we must have vastly different experiences of tone in our musical development. For me it was in the context of classical music. When you think of tone in an orchestra. Orchestral colour, instrument pairings, register, all these things would affect the sound and were hugely important to consider. Beethoven said that music was the voice of God. Surely his voice would not sound like Fran Drescher?


frankus wrote:

I think a musician should play the music and shape the notes and reach out to an audience, engineers tweak with the sound.


Well what about singers who rely on their own tweaking? Are they afforded more conscious thought about the sound then guitar players? Why would you give up such a thing to an engineer anyway? That to me is like letting an engineer take care of the dynamics as well while he's at it.

frankus wrote:

I don't feel comfortable with the idea of chasing tone at the expense of making music - it seems to be a different hobby from being a musician and expressing yourself through music.


You must realize that tone is a musical element. That's not opinion it's fact. If you were to study composition seriously say at third level you would have entire classes on tone. It is as important an element as anything else in music. I mean imagine substituting instruments of a well known piece of music with foghorns. An extreme example i accept. But remember as you said yourself your happy as long as the notes are there.


frankus wrote:

I'm not looking to have all our opinions reconciled, we're all individuals and I think it's important to respect those differences. I have my voice and you have yours Wink


I think it was important you said that and very beneficial for the discussion. It is often very hard to read posts and decipher the tone [forgive the pun] truly intend. I hope you will take mine to be friendly Smile

BIOS
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BIOS, I'm sorry you have decided to respond in this way.

I stated an opinion. I'm sorry if it's enraged you - it being, in your eyes "an outrageous assertion"; it's simply an opinion that differs from yours.

You seem to have taken the whole thing to heart and started playing a psychological game "I'm okay: you're not okay". You've made an emotionally loaded reply using rhetoric, criticism, small amounts of sarcasm but judgments (metric tonnes of those :^) and then told me we're still pals. See the covert aggression is what makes it a psychological game.

I'm not interested in giving you more material to pursue, if every comment I make is to be emotionally misconstrued - it makes communication very unrewarding.

I'm happy to let other people make their own minds up.
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BIOS



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 45
Location: Inside your Piano

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:


BIOS, I'm sorry you have decided to respond in this way.


Before I respond Frankus, I want to say that genuinely I apologize if you took what I said the wrong way. It was not my intention to offend you. So far the few discussions we have had have been very amicable and I would like to ensure they stay that way.

In reponse the only way I can see that I responded in a manner you wouldn’t appreciate is that I responded at all considering your

frankus wrote:

“Tone" is a nice to have, nothing more and I am not looking to be convinced otherwise”


which is pretty much a full stop on your engagement in the discussion. Also indicating that people are trying to persuade you of anything indicates that the problem lies with you. I am discussing on a discussion board not recruiting for some musical SS.

frankus wrote:

I stated an opinion. I'm sorry if it's enraged you.


Lol if I was enraged by such assertions I would do very poorly as an artist and as human I think. Believe me when I say i have heard far more “outrageous” artistic opinions in my time. People often mistake a passionate reply with anger or otherwise negative emotions. I don’t think my response was all that passionate tbh,

frankus wrote:

it being, in your eyes "an outrageous assertion"; it's simply an opinion that differs from yours.


Yes as is any “outrageous assertion” to the person who believes it is that. A difference of opinion. I merely characterized it. Forgive me for not being entirely perfunctory in my choice of words. It would be very boring otherwise I think.

frankus wrote:

You seem to have taken the whole thing to heart and started playing a psychological game "I'm okay: you're not okay".


Well as for taking it to heart, music is something I am passionate about and am willing to discuss seriously. I tend to approach peoples stated opinions as more than throw away comments and hope that they approach mine the same way.

As far as psychological games go and the "I'm okay: you're not okay" comment, I am kind of blown away by that. It really couldn’t be further from the truth. This is a type of discussion I have on a daily basis with friends who have similar interests in all arts. Music is for everybody. I have never and would never make such judgments or imply that they exist. All I tried to emphasize is that outside of your own personal context there are artistic standards that exist. Whether you are a type to eschew universals is really your deal.

frankus wrote:

You've made an emotionally loaded reply using rhetoric, criticism, small amounts of sarcasm but judgments (metric tonnes of those :^) and then told me we're still pals. See the covert aggression is what makes it a psychological game.


In fairness your response seems to me far more emotional than mine. What you call rhetoric I call a simple countering of the points you made with one’s of my own. There is no rhetoric tone to my language. That seems a bit paranoid imo.

I said “you must” once. Big deal. I've been watching alot of period films lately and the language seems to have rubbed off a bit. It really shouldn’t offend you that much. Whether you find this as an attempt at persuasion is really your own issue but I think you are being overly sensitive. I said at the beginning I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything. I stated my opinions in relation to your own. I never said my opinion was better than yours or that it was more important. I really have better things to do than persuade someone I have never met to meet my own opinion on the subtleties of tone. I mean come on. I replied because I though it was an interesting discussion. I was genuinely interested in your opinions on the matter. There was no sarcasm. No covert aggression. I even complimented the last comment in your post that stated how we all have individual opinions and to be respectful of them.

frankus wrote:

I'm not interested in giving you more material to pursue, if every comment I make is to be emotionally misconstrued - it makes communication very unrewarding.


Again if you look at my responses objectively you should see that they were all quite valid. I think it is you that has emotionally misconstrued the situation.

It’s called “The Official Guthrie Govan Discussion Board” for a reason. If you state an opinion on a public discussion board people will want to discuss it. That’s all I did. You took it the wrong way. I apologize for that. Like I said at the end of my previous post.

“It is often very hard to read posts and decipher the tone [forgive the pun] truly intend. I hope you will take mine to be friendly”

If this was in the pub I’d buy you a beer and say no hard feelings and you would know I was being sincere. This is the genuine problem with discussion online. People misunderstand the manner in which you speak. I never garner reactions like this in person so forgive me if I assume that this is a case where you have reacted as a result of this phenomenon. I hope that eventually you will realize that the manner in which I express myself is sincere and respectful and that my poor attempts at humor can often be taken the wrong way if you are not used to it. [the foghorn part perhaps]. I Hope we can resolve this without flaming each other. Believe me I wouldn’t have taken the time to write a response like this if I wanted to flame.

In the words of Buzz Lightyear, I come in peace

BIOS
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 570
Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geez. lighten up dudes and get back on topic!

.
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olliewoodwright



Joined: 27 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumis wrote:
geez. lighten up dudes and get back on topic!

.


+1
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still light, see: Cool

I don't like this concept of "tone"; even it's definition appears to be subjective and contentious.

Some people seem to have made an emotional investment in defining tone for their own purposes.

I like Ed's opinion it seems funny, concise, clear, well-balanced and gives the subject about as much gravitas as it deserves.
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just thought I'd through this into the mix to underscore how tone is subjective Wink blind testing Stradivarius
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I have the power!
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.


Axe FX Ultra


Razz
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musiculi



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say his tone comes from practicing....a lot...
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tortex.70



Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 8
Location: scotland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly think "tone" comes from "everything".
NOT just the hands - really - if you got Guthrie to play through a Zoom 1010 the "playing" would sound good BUT the actual "tone" would be BAD.

So, my opinion is....great player + decent guitar + decent amp = Great tone

I honestly think it's that simple - to say it's all in the hands is simply not true as the gear really DOES affect the end result.
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, "everything" does matter when it comes to tone, but a huge majority does come from the hands. I've been in this business long enough - worked at Fender for 10+ years, owned and ran Tone Merchants for 3+ years and will soon have been at Suhr for 5 years. Guitars and amps matter but, ultimately, gear is just a way to channel or is an interface for what a musician is trying to get across from his mind and his soul.

I've seen many players sound so different playing through the same rig so many times. I've seen and heard great players sound amazing through mediocre rigs and so-so players sound not-so-good through super expensive boutique gear. I certainly prefer the former. There's good gear, great gear, average gear and outright bad gear, but even good and great gear needs to be right for a particular player.

Guthrie has tried all kinds of gear (guitars, amps, pedals, processors, etc.) and he's more interested in what works for him. What's good for him isn't necessarily going to be good for you and vice versa. He's quite sure that a lot of well-known high-end brands aren't for him even though they're right for other players. So it's more - a lot more - than just a matter of what's good and bad. Even amongst what's considered good or great, some will work for him and some won't. Same for you. That's why there are so many choices out there. Find your own sound. What works for you is all that matters. Guthrie very well knows what works for him.
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tortex.70



Joined: 02 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agreed Alex , but, I hate the whole " its in the hands" thing because It's just not 100% true - it's true to a certain extent but falls apart when you take a great player through a Zoom 1010 vs through a Boutique all analog setup, to the layman it will "sound" better through the good gear even though the playing is the same level.
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MissMisstreater



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and if you raced and f1 driver with him in your car and you in his you would win... doesn't mean you are a better driver

an experiment can only have one variation at a time or the results are non specific

tone is in the hands, it really is as simple as that, when my students play through my hellcat stack on my suhr with my boutique pedal board they dont sound any better than on a yamaha pacifica into a pod

the gear may feel nicer (and slightly less forgiving) and the gear may colour the tone slightly better, but at this level of gear we choose amplifiers and guitars that will do just that, AMPLIFY the sound WE make the guitar produce... if you dont put it in... it doesnt come out

when i pick up the yamaha and the pod, sure it doesnt sound as good as my usual rig, but i can still make it sound like a professional, and thats because of my hands, touch, timing, feel, vibrato, all the subtle things you cant buy

the true test is to compare someone like scott henderson to a a bedroom shredder on the SAME cheap gear.... who sounds better? Wink

oh, and its ed, not alex

(tho where does your moniker come from ed?)
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alexkhan



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MissMisstreater wrote:


(tho where does your moniker come from ed?)



I'm somewhat of a history buff and love reading about ancient Greece, Rome and the histories of the great conquerors. "alexkhan" comes from my admiration for arguably the two greatest conquerors and military commanders of all time: Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan.

They also did a lot in fusing the West and the East through their conquests - the Hellenistic era after Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire and the Mongol Empire which essentially opened up the Silk Road for culture to be exchanged and for trade to flourish between Europe and Asia.

So the moniker goes beyond my admiration for these colossal figures who changed their worlds in their eras and to the concept of fusing disparate cultures, ideas, arts, etc. from opposite ends of the world.

Anyway, getting back to the subject on hand, it really is in the hands. I've heard and seen a lot of good (even great) players sound not-so-good through highly expensive gear. I've seen Guthrie play through a cheap Fender with a distortion pedal and he still sounded just like himself although he would have preferred to play through a Cornford. Another guy with basically the same kind of gear sounded totally different.

The acoustic tone of an electric guitar is like an ant and that gets amplified many thousand folds through amplification into a dinosaur. Guthrie likes amps that takes that acoustic sound of an unplugged guitar and is just made louder. He wants the amp to simply amplify that pure acoustic signal without coloration. He wants all the nuances of his picking attack, the tweaks on the volume and tone knobs on the guitar, the vibrato and bends of his left hand, etc. to come through without gobs of distortion and compression coloring what he does.

He doesn't like amps that make everyone sound the same no matter what guitar you plug into it. He doesn't want the guitar to be a mere "controller" that "triggers" the preset distortion sounds in an amp. He wants to hear the honk of the Mahogany and the snap of the Pau Ferro fingerboard coming through clearly and with a lot of dynamics. If he hits the strings hard, he wants to hear more overdrive. When he backs off his picking attack, he wants to hear a clean sound. That's how he wants his amps to respond.

He likes amps that are honest and those type of amps are really unforgiving and can be difficult to play. If you don't pick accurately, all the sloppiness or missed clean strokes will come out loud and clear. When you have tons of gain and compression, you don't have to pick accurately to get the note to sound the same as hitting it on the money. Tons of gain also make you sound faster than you really are. Guthrie doesn't like those kinds of amps; we all know what kind of amps he's talking about. He goes for a very organic vintage-type of overdrive in which you can hear the character of the woods come through.

I've heard a lot of guys (including myself! Embarassed) play through Guthrie's rigs and I've not heard one guy sound close to how Guthrie sounds. Not even close... And we're talking the tone only - not the playing. Just the sound.
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