Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: I thought I knew fast!!!
After my initial drepressive reaction, I felt I needed to share this with you... I know it´s a stupid exercise, but this is too much. I have been trying to play sextuplets fast for a long time, 120bpm being my limit for a long time... !! I saw Petrucci get much faster and I thought that, well, he´s a PRO and one of the best at that anyway... Now I am torn... Where is the limit anyway...?
Yeah i agree. I had a massive fasination with playing fast for a while, got really fast and thought, why?? I wasn't playing anything musical, just pure excersises. Cant play like that over a blues in A, or a country backing in G, it just wont sound right.
If you want to play fast i'd suggest transcribing some Al Di Meola lines instead, much more musically rewarding. Or make your own musical ideas up and work on them, like Steve Morse always has done, in a very listenable way (to my ears anyway!!). Check out the Steve Morse track: 'Tumeni Notes'
If you read Guthrie's first book ,he mentions there's no point of trying to play faster than you can think Unless of course you just want to give your fingers some exercise
but that's not the point is it?...
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:49 am Post subject: Damn it
No offense, guys, but I am tired of all this bullshit... The file I sent was just an exercise, was not even trying to appeal as music. I am so sick of people picking so much on the whole speed thing...
In this case, it was obviously just about the mere physical side, because, let´s face it, there is a big physical factor in guitar playing. And for Guthrie or anybody at that level of virtuosism that comes and says that kinda bullshit, I am sorry, but I am tired of all that fake attitude: "Ít´s all about the music, play music, don´t play fast. Oh, btw, I spent millions of hours practicing until I got to be this good."
I think nobody here can deny that Guthrie, and many like him, were amazed by speed and virtuosism and spent huge amounts of time trying to get to that point of technical prowess. In fact, if you listen to many of Guthrie´s earlier clips, he was a big time shreder!!! Now he´s older and all of a sudden that is not cool anymore!??! Get out!
I agree that speed for speed sake is pointless, specially in the context of a song, but I think it was pretty obvious that the guy was just in a lesson, showing an exercise and pointing a speed limit (his anyway). It was Obvious to me that I posted this link not because I thought it had any musical value, but because I found it phisically impressive.
What is the deal, then? Are we guitar players so jealous of someone else´s abilities that we cannot accept this for what it´s worth?!?! Come on, guys, it´s all cool. I read in Virgil Donati´s forum that most drummers could appreciate the value of Mike Mangini´s winning the price of fastest drummer in the world. It was just him playing a snare roll, but there is still value to it. Why guitar players always get into this ego wars? I mean most of you are already bashing the guy and you haven´t even listened to him actually trying to play music.
Honestly, I am sad to see such narrow minds among guitar players. I like everything and find always something positive in anybody´s playing. The guy I showed has great technical ability and I think that´s cool. When I listen to Al di Meola, I find many other cool aspects too (he can get dead boring playing sextuplet sequences as well). I think the best thing is to stop trying to teach others what is the "right way" and just appreciate it for what it is, instead of bashing it.
My two cents, anyway. _________________ "Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"
perhaps if you had started this thread in another part of this forum about technique, theory, education, etc., you wouldn't have gotten so much flak. what does this really have to do with guthrie govan discussion? if you read up on some of the things that guthrie himself has said in some threads here and what ed said through his conversations with guthrie, you will find that guthrie never practiced in such a manner.
i know guthrie was influenced by guys like yngwie, macalpine, gilbert, morse, lane, howe, holdsworth, buckethead, garsed, henderson, and a bunch of others. but he learned from them by transcribing their stuff and playing along to records and absorbing their attitude and their styles, not by playing exercises and gradually increasing speed on the metronome. look it up on one of the questions thread in this forum. guthrie despises the idea of practicing to a metronome or some similar device.
why get pissy about it? the truth of it is that many people here don't care about boring exercises and someone crying about not being able to execute the exercises at a certain tempo. there is always someone faster than the latest fastest guy. you want to hear fast? try danny joe carter. he's certainly faster than this guy doing sextuplets at 180 bpm. but the truth of the matter is that very, very few people even care, including most in this forum. i just look at the video you posted and i go: it's just not interesting stuff. especially in the gg discussion space...
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:09 am Post subject: To my surprise
Your mind´s even narrower than I thought. Nevermind, enjoy your little world and make sure to stay inside.
Btw, really funny that bit about not practising like that. Right. So you are saying that Guthrie started playing, had no technical prowess at all, then listened to a Paul Gilbert solo, and just out of nowhere he started playing like Paul without having to spend the millions of hours Paul spent practicing to be able to play it.
You believe that. I´ll buy something that is real. _________________ "Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"
At first I read your post and thought it was an over-reaction to what at worst is someone adopting the old Yoda adage of "Wars does not make one great" sorta mutated into "Speed does not make one great". Some of the replies are rather trite and possibly uncharacteristically terse, so to my mind you've reason to be annoyed, if you want to.
I'm all for people pushing their abilities, as is everyone else here. I guess there's just a recognised phenomena (after the 80s) that it can lead your guitar playing into a cul-de-sac. By which time you might have invested so much time in it that your musicality follows down the same cul-de-sac. I think noone wants to see that happen to a fellow guitarist.
Personally I've dropped playing fast, I've learnt licks thoroughly and refined the movements and fingerings till I can play them faster than I'll need.. that was a Petrucci tip: learn to play it faster than you need, so when you play it live it doesn't sound forced.. so if Petrucci is practicing what he preaches he can play his fastest stuff faster than you've heard him play... that means he's playing at the speed he chose for a reason, not to play "flat-out"
Guthrie still is a shredder (when he wants to be) but he really makes use of rhythm and space; speed is used with reserve and taste and in the context of the tune. That's where I think speed means something: it's a contrast thing.
Of course Guthrie practiced things like economy of movement that will make playing fast a lot easier, that might even have been his intention when studying it.. it was for me.
To say that an attitude is fake because a person has stopped believing in something they once did is rather silly (or "daft" in my native tongue), it's not fake.. it's their genuine experience.. I'm not going to say "the voice of experience" as that would indicate "one true way" which there isn't. I could site reformed smokers, born again christians, Linda Lovelace etc as examples of people who's opinions changed.. but frankly they're probably not good choices it's not hypocrisy unless you're doing something and denouncing it at the same time.
Steering well clear of making any obvious jokes on drummers, like: what's the difference between a drummer and a 12" Pizza .. the pizza can feed a family of four.. I shall point to the fact that drums are for the most part rhythmical and percussive instruments and used in that dimension so a drummer will appreciate speed, if only for it to give them something to work towards the end of a song . Guitar can be about speed in the same way going to the gym can end up as "who can bench press the most".. there is in fact a guy on another forum who does both and come across as a real dork, it's all about bpm and kgs and there's no art to either.
One of my favourite pieces by Satriani is Time Machine that has a fast feel but the solo is slow and stately and really atmospheric. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: Thanks
Ok, that is a fair point. I understand other people´s point of views and anything goes as long as there is some reasoning, not just plain bashing with no arguments.
Of course melody, harmony and rythm are the elements of music, and they all should be used along with technical dexterity in the instrument. And I totally agree that if overdone, that technical ability can result in the rest of the elements being neglected, thus resulting in mere show off.
However, I think I made it clear enough that the link I posted was just merely a physical achievement and something that I think is fun to watch. I did say that it had no musical value at all, so I don´t understand why the whole "better play music instead" thing. In addition, this is just something for guitar players to discuss and have fun with... This is not the army... So what if I didn´t post in the right place? That does not justify that harsh attitude.
Btw, Time Machine is to me Satriani´s best song. So strong... phew, amazing.
Thanks _________________ "Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"
Well, Mr-sheets of sound- himself; John Coltrane plays semi-quavers at 310 bpm in 'Ah-leu-cha'. Pretty amazing.
Of course people will come and claim they've heard faster guitarists, but it's generally just hyperbole. Coltrane is actually on record playing that.
And as for the speed thing; I've practised up to comfortably alternate- picking semi-quavers at 120 bpm. I can slur passage-work quite a bit faster.
Basically my attitude was to chose the easiest option for speed to get faster quicker. I'm not going to lie; I was not prepared to treat the guitar like a 100 metre race. I simply chose the route which was easier and which also opened such options as right and left hand tapping.
I just wanted to get that 'olymic trainer' attitude out of the way as soon as possible; in order to leave me time to express my self.
Try and be original; if you can't train your muscles up to the requisite dexterity; try training your mind and ear.
Learn lots of different scales and chords. And, if you want, theory.
Being original is the key.
Listen to other instruments and try and copy them; that is how the electric guitar has evolved.
Try finding monophonic classical pieces (i.e for flute or violin) and try to play them.
Have small targets in your playing over small amounts of time.
I think it's quite good, nice tone and your execution is very clean. Well done. Good example of starting off slow at first then building up speed. You'll be surprised at how many shredheads that don't do that...lol. Btw, is that a Brian Moore....I always liked those guitars
do you have any clips of your music? That video is cool but I think everyone here would be more interested if you have some music you can share.
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject: Guys Guys Guys!!!
Why cant we wll just get along
You are all right!! Shredmeister obviously just thought that since this a guthrie discussion forum that you guys are interested in all things that are
related to guitar genius or the like.And he wanted to share what impressed him and thought perhaps it might inspire someone here.If it did,then great and if it didnt no need to get in a mood about it.
there is no denying that theodore can shred like a mxtxexfxcxex and unless you have heard his music you shouldnt assume he cant play melodically.It was only an exercise and theo played it fast and accurate
so tip of the hat to him to for aquiring that level of technique!!!
I think its great if guys share video clips here regardless of their connection to guthrie or not.Im sure even guthrie might have a look himself!! So come on guys,lets all just get along and be one big happy forum No more aggro
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