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I thought I knew fast!!!
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ShredMeister



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:05 am    Post subject: Thanks, Al Reply with quote

Hey, Al, thanks a lot for your words. I totally agree, fun discussion and sharing is the key to a guitar forum, specially on one dedicated to a guitar player with such an open mind to all kinds of music.

Carlo, donīt get confused. Thatīs not me! That is Theodore Ziras, from Greece. I was just visiting his site out of curiosity and found that video. It impressed me and I posted it here to share my first impressions.

Cheers
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Jon



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:37 am    Post subject: wow Reply with quote

Haven't checked back here for a couple of days and it's all got a bit heated (feels like I'm on the Frank Gambale board - is there a Marauder in the house?)

Shred - my comment (glib statement?) about 'playing music instead' was prompted by the fact that your initial post made it sound like you were stressed/depressed that you couldn't match the guy's speed after all your practicing. I think every guitar player gets that from time to time - you spend ages practicing a particular technique, feel like you've really progressed, then see somone who blows you away and makes you feel like you've achieved nothing.

That's when it's good to focus on the creation of music rather than technique - even the simplest piece of music - a couple of chords basically strummed - has artistic merit and it's worth taking time to enjoy stuff like that. It doesn't mean that speed and technique don't have a part to play, but most great musicians develop technique as a means to realise the music that they want to play, and those techniques are a means to an end, rather than the end in themselves. Phil Sudo's 'Zen Guitar' book is pretty good for putting this sort of stuff in perspective.

There's always a bit of a competitive element amongst guitar players, but when you get that depressed feeling in the face of mega technique, it's worth remembering that no-one other than guitar players gives a damn - they're all far more impressed by how cool you look when you play! Cool
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stratoskier



Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 82
Location: Bozeman Montana

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's probably relevant to this discussion that Guthrie penned the cover story in the new issue of Guitar Techniques. It's called... (drum roll here)...

"Play faster... TODAY"

I continue to be amazed by Guthrie's holistic, healthy attitude about all things guitar. His comments about speed in the Creative Guitar books and his preface to this new GT article are definitely worth reading if we want to sneak into the mind of this master player who can play as fast as he wants but knows how to do it with taste and discretion.

Cheers to all!
Bert
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, whether we like to admit it or not, speed is somewhat of a big deal to us. And Guthrie is certainly one of the fastest out there - certainly in the top 1% (if not in the 0.1% Rolling Eyes Wink ) and as fast as anyone would really need to be to execute musical ideas that require a lot of speed. Speed is not a requirement to make great music or to play great guitar by any means, but it's certainly a nice option to have. We guitar players and fans tend to emphasize speed more so than players of other instruments, but we also know that pianists, sax players, violinists and other instrument players have their own "speed competition" kind of thing going on, too.

I think the degree of the difficulty of certain types of lines executed at high speeds is something that rarely gets discussed by people embroiled in the silly "Who's the fastest?" arguments. A magazine article once proclaimed Steve Vai the fastest by saying that one of his lines had 21 notes played in a second. And there was a list of fairly well-known players who clocked in at 18, 17, 16, 15, etc. Rolling Eyes Laughing Oh yeah, and Kirk Hammett was on the list as one of the 10 fastest. Rolling Eyes I must admit, that was one of the silliest articles I've ever seen in a guitar magazine.

When it comes to guitar playing to some chops-obsessed folks, speed is like porn. It's like, if you don't have speed and the chops, you're not sexy or worthy of being in some porn film. Of course, then there's the XXX hardcore of speed fest and you have the hardcore "stars" of that field with the likes of the new young generation (Rusty Cooley, Francesco Fareri, etc.) and the old (Chris Impelliteri, Michael Batio, Joe Stump, etc.). So where does Guthrie fit into this demented structure? He makes real movies - R rated. You know, the likes of Catherine Denevue, Sharon Stone, Nicole Kidman... Laughing
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratoskier wrote:
It's probably relevant to this discussion that Guthrie penned the cover story in the new issue of Guitar Techniques. It's called... (drum roll here)...

"Play faster... TODAY"



Well, as I touched upon it on the above post, that's akin to Cindy Crawford or some supermodel on the cover of a women's beauty magazine saying,

"Be beautiful... TODAY"

And all kinds of women will snatch up that issue. I'm sure Cindy or some other beauty will offer very good tips on being beautiful that will appeal to women of all ages. I suspect Guthrie will do the same in regards to playing faster! Very Happy
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shredrulez
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh ed, you're killing me! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

that's some funny stuff. Mr. Green
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ShredMeister



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject: Cool stuff Reply with quote

Hi there,

Nice stuff, Ed, pretty funny.

You are right, some of those fast players like Rusty Cooley or Francesco Fareri are bullshit. I think Rustyīs music is really like a B-movie. I donīt know, the neoclassical stuff is just like any other genre, it requires imagination and taste, not just plain "Letīs play as fast as I can". Well, if you ask me, at least Rusty nails what he plays. But what about Francesco... What do you guys think about him? I think that is bullshit taken to the next level... I mean, the guy canīt play at that speed!!!! His timing is horrible, you canīt hear the notes, because he has no coordination between his hands, he has no sense of melody, probably the most laughable vibrato I have ever seen, and letīs not speak about his rythmic control... I mean, the guy is a joke!!! I really donīt understand why anybody actually buys his cds. In fact, I must admit that the guy bugs me, because I really feel that itīs players like that that have really hurt the Shred style in general. I think there is some value to technical craft in the instrument, even if the musical content is not that good. But if the music sucks and the guy canīt play two notes in a row cleanly, then, please, shut the fuck UP!
My two cents anyway
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ShredMeister



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:00 am    Post subject: By the way... Reply with quote

... What do you guys think of Marshall Harrison? I have only heard him improv, but those are some mammoth chops he has!
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Carlo



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a huge fan of Marshall's playing, not only does he have fluid and incredible chops but he's got a great harmonic sense and can blow through some mean changes.....great improvisational skills and not just your typical shred.

I have even subscribed to his monthly instructional videos. I have been trying to incorporate some of his licks and ideas into my playing (but the key word here is try....definitely not easy Shocked ). However, he does seem a bit arrogant.....but he's got the chops to back it up. Wink


And, personally, I think Rusty Cooley is fantastic. I dig his style. Got a chance to hang with him for bit and he is definitely one of the nicest, most unpretentious guitarists I have ever met. You have your typical shred.....but Rusty is just in a completely other level in terms of physical chops, the stuff you see on his site and Chops from Hell barely scratch the surface. Sometimes he reaches speeds that are extremely insane yet he executes it so cleanly and you can still hear the articulation of every note.....completely mesmerizing almost. He can even nail some of those impossible Shawn Lane-esque pull-off licks and weird Buckethead taps....I've seen it in person. So in terms of pure shred and physicality, Rusty definitely has his moments that Guthrie can't touch.

Oh yeah, I think Francesco is completely and uterrly terrible. His technique.....yuck.
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stratoskier



Joined: 24 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So just to make sure I got this right -- you guys are recommending we all buy Francesco Fareri's CD's right away, yeah?
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know. The speed-for-speed's-sake kind of playing really doesn't do anything for me at all. And, yeah, I don't have any idea why Fareri even gets the attention that he does. Out of the ones who have insane speed, the one I like the most is Todd Duane. His lines aren't your typical neoclassical type of lines, which are just basically never-ending runs of minor and diminished scales which lend themselves to easy fingering patterns. Todd is not only super fast, but those lines of his sound difficult even if they were to be played much slower.

If Guthrie had any inkling of an interest in this type of playing and focused on it like some of these guys on the pure physical aspects of playing fast for fast's sake, I think he'd be able get up there with the "top 0.1%", but he's just not into it at all. I've brought up the subject of this type of playing and the aforementioned players and I could just tell by the look on his eyes and his body language that he's not even remotely interested. You'll never hear him slag anything or anyone, but I can tell he'd rather talk about something else. He's definitely more interested in ideas and what's going on inside the heads of other great players, i.e., brain chops...
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.

Like I said previously, exercising the brain is equally important to exercising the fingers.

If you really feel that you won't be able to play fast; try concentrating on other aspects of music.


I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather hear someone with not a partiularly good technique, but a really good knowledge of the neck, a good ear and good phrasing rather than Yngwie Malmsteen.

... Love James XXX
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James W wrote:


I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather hear someone with not a partiularly good technique, but a really good knowledge of the neck, a good ear and good phrasing rather than Yngwie Malmsteen.



Shall we talk about some "slowhand" players now with great phrasing? Wink

Jeff Beck (although he could shred pretty good if he feels like it!)
David Gilmour
Robben Ford
Eric Clapton (Mr. Slowhand himself!)
Mike Landau
Rory Gallagher
Robin Trower
Brian May
Michael Schenker (although I wouldn't say he's slow by any means)
Gary Moore (ditto for above)

And, of course, the blues masters:

BB King
Albert King
Albert Collins
SRV
Buddy Guy

Pure blues isn't something I listen to often, but I've got albums by the above and it's easy to understand why they are acknowledged masters in that field.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing I really like these days is people like George Benson, Ronny Jordan and Wes Montgomery for their "nailing" changes in a really melodic sense.

I'm currently transcribing "So What" for my guitar lesson, and my teacher did a heck of a lot of talking around the subject (which I love) so we looked at the orchestration and phrasings used by Miles on the original, the chords used and what kind of things the tune chooses to say.

Unlike Bebop tunes with 6 chords to a bar, "So What" has two chords and sticks to the D dorian mode throughout. It's packed with tasty licks, my guitar teacher has passed on his enthusiasm for them and he loved Guthrie's and Zak's stuff..

If we're talking really slow hand stuff, the master is Pharoah Sanders on Astral Travelling... he holds one note over several chord changes and the chords change the meaning of the note from sad ending to a phrase to reflective sad note to assured upbeat note.. Which kind of reminds me of all the unhappy things that happen, eventually they make you stronger...
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I really like Robben Ford.

Two players who excel at both slow and fast playing for me are Guthrie and Allan Holdsworth.


... Love James XXX
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