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Beyond Technique
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:31 am    Post subject: Beyond Technique Reply with quote

I know that what attracts people initially to Guthrie is the mind-boggling technique and chops that Guthrie possesses. Then we are equally blown away by his versatility and being able to excel in so many styles and genres. But that doesn't mean that Guthrie is "better" than players who don't have such technique, speed, and proficiency in various styles - Jimi, for instance. Jeff Beck. Robben Ford. Mike Landau. Scott Henderson (although Scott's got pretty mean chops himself). Robin Trower. And even in realms of rock, there are players with very good to excellent chops (but not quite in the stratospheric range of where Guthrie flies) who have identifiable styles of their own: John Sykes, Doug Aldrich, Gary Moore, Warren DiMartini, George Lynch, Zakk Wylde, Steve Stevens, Stevie Salas, Jerry Cantrell, Dave Navarro, etc.

Let's ignore Guthrie's chops for a moment. Or is it possible? Is the chops such an integrated element of Guthrie's style that it's hard to imagine what Guthrie's style would be like if the jaw-dropping factor is not part of the equation? I surf around elsewhere or talk to guitar fans of all ilk and it's always interesting to see what they have to say about Guthrie and about why they like someone else so much and why. At this shop, I get a lot of guys who are older and are typically into classic rock, blues-rock, pop, alternative, and other more mainstream kind of stuff. Someone like Rusty Anderson (Paul McCartney's guitar player), session players like Tim Pierce, Michael Thompson, Sean Tubbs, pop-rockers like Mike Chapman (Tom Petty) and Lyle Workman (Beck), etc. are some of the names that get mentioned a lot here.

We always like to compare Guthrie to monster players like Greg Howe, Steve Vai, Paul Gilbert, Brett Garsed, Bumblefoot, Yngwie, IA, Shawn Lane, Eric Johnson, Petrucci, McLaughlin, Holdsworth, etc., but what about Guthrie's ability to play within the context of a given piece of music and not letting loose? Does Guthrie have an identifiable voice and style when he's not ripping it up on the fretboard? When you listen to some of the GT clips (and those are just instructional clips), you do hear elements that are distinctly Guthrie, but overall, they sound more generic than really standing out. He sounds like he's mimicking someone else, even if it's done to "perfection" in terms of note choices, vibrato, phrasing, etc. That Beatles tune done a la Jimi - it sounds good, but not quite Jimi. People say it all sounds "too perfect" or clinical.

I think I do understand where these people are coming from. Even when Guthrie plays the blues and do it with feel and passion, no one's going to mistake him for BB King or Albert Collins. Even when he does funk, no one's going to mistake him for Nile Rodgers or Prince. Nor David Gilmour or Carlos Santana or Rory Gallagher or Michael Schenker or Angus Young or Vince Gill or Albert Lee or Landau... Guthrie could certainly play their stuff and I'm sure he has, but I sometimes wonder if the "overhead" chops that he has and the amount of time he has put into mastering such mind-boggling techniques takes away from nailing that feel and tone of aforementioned type of players. Of all the modern players with great chops and 21st-century speed, I think Guthrie sounds the most authentic when playing the slow bluesy stuff, pop, funk, classic rock, etc., but I do agree that there's that "nagging" perfection there. That's just my take, so what do you guys think?
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sterlingsilver



Joined: 20 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive probably already said this before but when i first saw the cornford clinic dvd, it wasn't the insane chops that really struck me. almost from the first note he played, i could sort of sense this immense talent like nothing i had ever seen before. the way he lets notes sustain and then holds them right before they die is really striking. they way everything fits and his phrasing were what also struck me. none of that stuff would be as impressive if he didnt have the chops of course but they do really stand out. like you've said in other places ed, guthrie really just dominates the guitar like few others. if all people can hear is shred than they're not really listening to him. a lot of people never see the forest for the trees
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first saw Guthrie playing there was about 10 minutes catharsis as I measured my own techniques to his.. if you can imagine such things on a bar chart, I was trying to find a scale where my skills even registered against his. Rolling Eyes I've never had technique issues before (I've been content to be sub-mediocre Wink) but something about the proximity and proficiency tripped a switch.

Then a big genuine grin spread across my face. I kinda forsook technique and at that point the really tasty music took over. Have you ever noticed how few people are envious of another players taste and phrasing? I don't think you can be envious, you can admire it.. but it's part of them, not their ability to "interface" with an instrument.

I've taken stacks of guitarists along for a reprogramming... it's like the Dr Pepper advert Wink but with better music, and sometimes Seth or Zack or John or Pete shines the most on the night.

Technique is a really important thing in the UK, if you go dancing you practice the technique, having verve, elan and rhythm are percieved as not enough.. (you've got to know what you're doing) to the extent that throwing youself into something without the requisit amount of grounding is seen as gauche, which is sad.. and is a bit like a national insecurity.

In my opinion Guthrie has a holistic approach to music, so it's parts: style, technique etc are all happening autonomously Wink
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion is that the technique or 'chops' are an important part of Guthrie's playing as it means he is free to do whatever he wants. That I feel is an important theme in his playing - freedom. I think Guthrie (to my ear) doesn't always copy slavishly what the player sounds like in GT but always puts his own touch of magic or sparkle into the playing, which I always like. I think I could tell which piece of music had been played by Guthrie on the GT CD just by listening to it. He has such awsome feeling along with technique. His musical talents easily match his technical ones. They are two halves which make up the best player in the world we know today.

When Guthrie plays the guitar disappears and music appears.


... Love James XXX
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good points, frankus and James.

I also think tone is a big factor and Guthrie's tone remains something of an early stage in development at this point in time - especially since he hasn't released an album yet.

A player's tone is indeed like the player's face, his or her identity. It's the same as the voice of a singer - if the quality of the voice isn't to your liking, you're not really going to care how good he or she sings. I still think Guthrie is honing his own tone at the moment. It's like he's still in graduate school or something like that as far as that's concerned.

I really believe this is the area that we will continue to see Guthrie evolve and improve. In contrast to some of the names I mentioned, Guthrie is just starting out as an individual voice although he had his chops down a long time ago. And I'm willing to bet that this short but grueling Asia tour has helped him a lot in honing his sound and phrasing, etc., because he can't really let loose in that setting.

Very few people look at Guthrie as just a shredder. Even the anti-shred crowd and non-guitar fans could see that Guthrie can't be categorized as such. There are some detractors out there, but all I sense in them is envy and jealousy that Guthrie is getting as much attention as he is getting now. It's as though Guthrie burst their collective bubble that had been created in some delusionary state of theirs and they're ticked off about it, but that isn't our problem, is it? Rather sad to observe. I say, "Just kick back and enjoy what you're doing and don't mind Guthrie." Rolling Eyes

As Doctor Jazz here (friend of Guthrie's who gets to play with him and Zak every now and then) has stated here a few times, Guthrie is a great musician first who listens before he plays. How quickly and how often we guitar fans tend to forget that it's about the music that will be heard and not what your fingers can do on the fingerboard. You see some of these other forums and the sound coming out is like an afterthought to what the fingers are doing.

I think something we all need to do with the GG DVDs is to turn the video off and just listen to the music for a while. Don't think about what his fingers are doing but what's going on in his head to play those notes. There's a style there. There's a distinctive way that Guthrie arranges the notes, the solos, the songs, etc., whether they're written out lines or improvised lines. Yes, it's music, not guitar playing...
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shredrulez
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed, i think i know who you're talking about when it comes to the "detractors". sourpusses, if you ask me. Rolling Eyes i feel like jumping in and sayin', "man, STFU and go practice in your bedroom!"

guthrie's got his own thing. i couldn't care less what those bozos have to say. i could understand when guthrie's style isn't to their taste, but to state that gg's jazz playing is "intermediate" and crap like that just shows me that these people just have no clue.

you know, i'd be happy to listen to guthrie even if he didn't burn. i bet that if god put a speed limit on his playing, he'd figure out a way to be awesome within that limit. the chops are in his brain, not his fingers.
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Adagio_777



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never heard anyone say a bad word about GG. Smile
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me either Confused
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Will



Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But everyone said he smells of piss!!!

just kidding Razz
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

35% voted for that Wink

DoctorJazz was the Headmaster at the school my wife taught at.. I went there about a decade earlier, before both of them... DoctorJazz was reknowned for his musicality too... however I heard that the kids preferred someone else playing piano if they were singing as he used to swap chords and the like which threw them Laughing
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adagio_777 wrote:
I have never heard anyone say a bad word about GG. Smile


Not really bad things, but there are pockets of resistance out there. Read through this thread at The Gear Page if you've got some time to kill:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72659
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Will



Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that bad language isnt usually tolerated, but i am after all a harsh englishman. I only had to read 3 pages of that to just come up with the word "c**t"

Harsh i know, but i stand up to it. Whenever someone tries to argue playing like Guthries standard (or anyone else who is great) it must simply be because they are un-satisfied in themselves.

Quite simply a waste of time. Fuck off! Smile


sorry folks, edit as you will. But i try to speak everyones minds Smile
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Carlo



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, I could only stand reading a few pages of that thread...it was beginning to piss me off (glad I don't post there).

I would like to see some of these guys try hang with Guthrie in a real jam
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alexkhan



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You notice that I didn't even bother getting involved in the pissing contest. As I read through, all I could keep doing was: Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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shredrulez
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carlo wrote:
yeah, I could only stand reading a few pages of that thread...it was beginning to piss me off (glad I don't post there).

I would like to see some of these guys try hang with Guthrie in a real jam


same here, man. Evil or Very Mad what's with that guy who goes by tag? what's his agenda? who cares about what he has to say? i actually wasted about half-minute of my time to listen to a clip of his and all i could do was laugh.Rolling Eyes if guthrie's an "intermediate", this guy isn't even a novice who could play mary had a little lamb.

believe me, it's guys like these who could talk the big-talk on an internet forum who would cower and disappear if given the chance to jam with guthrie in front of an audience. the guy needs a life. notice he's got over 10,000 posts on that forum? Rolling Eyes he could have used that time to practice for a change. sheeesh... some people.
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