Guthrie Govan Discussion

[alexkhan]

Okay, it's really not important what a few's opinions are on an Internet forum with a very limited audience. I think part of the problem there is an over-zealous GG fan getting on a few other people's nerves as well. It really doesn't do GG any good when a fan goes around saying that GG blows everyone else away, etc. That's not really cool.

Guthrie does what he does and no one else does it like him. But the same goes for many other great players and Guthrie would be the first to tell you that he's not in the league of some of the great players he admires at what they do. I don't understand why people refuse to see things in such a manner and instead look at it as black and white: "My guy is better than yours and if you don't agree with me you're just full of sh*t".

That thread was just a juvenile "my brother can beat up your brother" or "my car is faster than yours" sort of exchange. In person, these guys are probably really cool, nice guys, and that's what I've heard about them. But hiding behind the computer, these forums sometimes seem to bring out the worst in people - saying stuff that they would never do so in person. So take something like this with a grain of salt and as some freaky side entertainment or something to just absorb and discard like a late-night sitcom rerun. In the end, who cares?
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Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[shredrulez]

ed, while we're at the mindless "entertainment", i might as well have my fun and take a shot at this guy cuz y'know this guy has no life and is in here reading what we have to say.

basically, the jazzholes have to take potshots at guys who have much better technique than they do with lines like, "well, he's just shredding". the jazzholes' number one cop-out: criticize whatever they can't do. it makes them feel better.

jazzholes like to think they're "superior" by playing their painfully boring unmelodic stuff that nobody wants to listen to and then complain about how the world isn't "hip" to the "cool" stuff they're doing.

yeah, these jazzholes are legends in their bedrooms alright, spending more time as virtual guitar heroes in front of their monitors since they couldn't possibly find a gig and an audience that will listen to their maudlin noodling they call "advanced". no wonder they can type better than they could play the guitar.

[ShredMeister]

Hi there,

Well, I think I will play the devil´s advocate here. I love Guthrie´s playing but, after watching the NAMM DVD, I must say I am not all that impressed by his technique. I think I was expecting more. Perhaps it´s because I am more impressed by great right hand technique, I don´t know. I really think Guthrie´s strength lies in his left hand and his tapping technique (when soloing and only speaking about the physical technical factor, obviously note choice and all other theory aspects are close to perfection). His right hand, and by that I mean picking technique is awesome, but not as good as Paul Gilbert´s or John Petrucci´s to name a few.

Other than that, and to be completely fair, I must say that his legatto control and technique is incredible and he does know all the tricks and weird sounds, which to me is really cool... It´s just so difficult to find a guitar player that really surprises and shows something you´ve never seen before... In addition, I really think he´s trying to keep it down there. For the most part, I think Guthrie is really at 20% if anything. There are few places where he really goes for it.

So my opinion is that he´s really impressive, but I felt a bit deceived about his right hand technique, which I believe is not as good as other parts of his playing. However, improv, chord mastery, music knowledge, ear training to name just a few, are areas where he excels like few others.

As far as having his own voice, I think that´s probably one of his weak points. I think that trying to nail so many styles has worked against him in developing his own thing. Of course, he does have his own style and just like Ed said, you can recognize some things here and there, but nothing like IA, Zakk Wilde, Steve Vai or JP among others. I think these guys have always done their thing and as a result they have developed their own voice around their music. On the other hand, they would never play as convincingly on so many styles as Guthrie can. So it´s a trade off, I suppose.

One thing I miss from him is a track where he´s really playing from the heart. I think he´s blues playing is a bit theoretic. I would like to hear Guthrie go for a simple progression and trying to elaborate it a la "For the love of God" or "Tender Surrender". Those kind of pieces would really show an element of his playing that I think lies behind some of his knowledge and technique. This also leads to another point which I consider to be a weak one. His writing. I don´t know about you guys, but I don´t consider Guthrie to be an awesome composer, at least based on the songs on that DVD. I don´t feel his music moves me in the way music from the greats moves me. I mean, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, EJ, Petrucci, Timmons, IA, etc. have writen stuff that appeals to a wide amount of people, because it´s great music. I think the music Guthrie is playing now would only appeal to a few guitar players like us.

I think that out of the greats, I can only think of two guys who can play convincingly on so many different styles with technique as mind-boggling as Guthrie´s. Eric Johnson and Andy Timmons. These two guys, specially Timmons, can play rock, pop, blues, jazz and shine on all of them. However, they have their voice and are very much recognizable.

Cheers
_________________
"Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"

John Petrucci

[shredrulez]

i disagree. i've seen dt and petrucci numerous times. i've seen gilbert several times, including an all-out shredfest clinic for ibanez guitars. imo, guthrie's right-hand technique is superior - when he really decides to use it. it may not be so evident on the dvd, but i saw guthrie 4 nights in a row live and he never played a solo the same way twice and some nights he picked a lot more, and some nights he played legato a lot more. on that jan 19 night, he used legato and tapping a lot more. i guess it depends on what he feels like doing on a particular night.

to me, guthrie's style is much more distinctive than that of petrucci or gilbert. but then, i've never been a big fan of either. so, in the end, i guess it comes down to personal taste.

[Will]

I agree

You have to remember that Guthries technique is so controlled that he can play 'loosely' (meaning he doesn't have to have his hand stuck in the same position)

I think a players technique should be recognised by sound, not by sight. Some players look to have great technique and should like shit, others look to have sloppy technique but sound like wizards.

Oh, and Guthries technique looks mighty fine to me

[ShredMeister]

Hi there,

Sure it can be a matter of taste. I just don´t like that I can hear his pick attack when he´s playing slow, but it´s just not there when he plays fast. After having seen the Clinic, to me it still is the same. PG´s right hand technique is incredible and if you haven´t already, please check his instructional videos, specially the first two. I haven´t seen many with such command over dinamics and with such solid right hand. It´s not just about speed that I am talking about here. To me GG is more like Greg Howe, who has somewhat good right hand technique, but is limited. I see that GG is limited too. After watching the DVD´s many times I noticed he almost always uses alternate picking for the same kind of runs only. I highly doubt that the clinic and the concert don´t show a big percentage of his right hand playing, and to me it´s not up to the level of JP or PG. Let´s face it, these guys have focused strongly on their right hand to develop them to such extent that it´s almost stupid. GG uses many other techniques and could laugh at them when using the rest of the many techniques he masters. I just think GG is not so hung up on picking and that shows... But that is not a bad thing, I just say this because I happen to like picking better. Again, just a matter of taste.

Cheers
_________________
"Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"

John Petrucci

[James W]

Again, I disagree. Guthrie has such a smooth picking style, one could could say his picking was legato. I forget which song it was, but I have most definitely heard him play alternate picking runs to the highest level. I have 'Creative Guitar 2' where Guthrie performs all the alternate picking exercises with a clean setting, perfectly and very quickly.

Guthrie has such a consummate ease and control over his right hand technique that it does not sound forced, or purposely 'showing-off'.

Guthrie has transcended the technique with the emphasis on music.


... Love James XXX

p.s if you want to see some one with a super-human right hand technique, I suggest you find a video of Shawn Lane.

p.p.s why do people always put 'shred' in their name?

[alexkhan]

I don't think Guthrie really likes that "shredding" right-hand picking attack kind of sound that's very evident in players like Yngwie, Gilbert, JP, etc. What I know is that he can certainly pick with the best of 'em when he does want to get that kind of sound. At the clinic last year, he played Rimsky-Korsakov's "Flight of the Bumblebee" at breakneck speed and alternate-picked every note with a clean sound. Unfortunately, this segment and a bunch of other cool segments of him playing on a fretless for 15 minutes and other jams weren't captured on video.

I agree with James in that he likes to go for a "legato" picking sound. Very often when you listen to Guthrie, you're not sure if he's alternate picking, just using his left-hand, tapping, or hybrid-picking. Sometimes he'll get more attack out of his taps and legato playing than when he's picking and vice versa. He has the freedom to move those techniques around and mix them the way he wants to fit the musical context. I've seen him just noodle around the shop, trying out different amps and guitars and fooling around, and let me tell you, his right-hand picking is awesome and I feel is easily in the league of Gilbert and Petrucci. But I must say that he doesn't use that sound very much when he's actually performing his own music. My thoughts are that he just doesn't want to sound like guys like PG and JP or anyone else for that matter.

I also have to agree with James here that if there is one guy who surpasses them all in terms of right-hand picking technique, Shawn Lane really has no peer. He also doesn't sound like guys like Yngwie or Gilbert or Petrucci. He also goes for a smoother attack kind of a sound even if he picks every note. I also know that Guthrie consciously avoids sounding like Lane in his runs although Lane's influence will certainly pop up every now and then. To me, the most evident thing about Guthrie is that he really isn't interested in sounding like anyone else. He may or may not succeed on this tune or that tune, but he sure is trying.
_________________
Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[James W]

... I concur

... alexkhan always has a knack of putting it in perfect words



Futher more, I think whether Guthrie's alternate picking technique is advanced as JP's or PG's is missing the point. Big time. Its totally irrelevant.

What is the title of this thread? Beyond technique that is to say, the emphasis is on music, not technique in Guthrie's playing.


... the illustrious J XXX

[AL]

In reply to shredmeister.Everyone has an opinion and nobody and everybody is right! What a great way out of an argument,lol !! But i disagree about guthries picking.I think paul gilbert and petrucci etc have great picking techniques but guthrie for me has a far better technique.I have an old guitar techniques where guthrie plays some shawn lane picking examples and he plays them with a clean sound and up to shawns amazing sounding speed.And i bet he could go faster than that again if he really tried
And in terms of styles and individual voices i had a lesson with guthrie years ago and at the time i was a massive john petrucci fan.I remember asking guthrie about his technique and guthrie just seemed to think john was trying to rip steve morse off.I couldnt believe what he was saying and i started to listen to a lot of old steve morse recordings and he was right for sure.Petrucci is guilty of over picking and sounding like a robot!! Different patterns but nearly always picking! I find him so boring to listen to now.Same with paul gilbert.If these guys were not allowed to play fast i think they couldnt stand out and most decent standard players would be up to standing on a stage with them.Guys like neal schon and jeff beck can play slow for a whole song and keep you interested.Name one song petrucci/gilbert play slowly through out and dont put you to sleep!
By the way if any one wants to hear some of the most amazing phrasing ever recorded you should check out neal schons album'voices'
And ye i think guthrie has spent so much time SUCCESFULLY analysing other players that he is finding it hard to find his own voice.But thats the way with everyone isnt it.Just guthrie sounds like 1000 other amazing players rather than sounding similar to a just a few others.Guthrie is just unfortunate to have a style and voice that is very similar to players like greg howe etc .
If guthrie had of came out before greg and co maybe that sound would have been his to rule over.He was just unfortunate to leave it to long to get out there.
And as far as song writing i think this is where guthrie has his only weakness.Thats probably the reason he isnt up there with greg and co in terms of popularity.OR,perhaps his songwriting is just way ahead of what us mortals can comprehend.Who knows.Music is PERSONAL OPINION in the end.And nobody and everybody is right!!!!
But its healthy to hear opinions! and by the way when it comes to picking speed Nuno Bettencourt is highly under rated! Listen to his solo in lil'jack horny' or better again try and play it

[alexkhan]

In response to AL, I don't think there's anything "unfortunate" about Guthrie's position or situation. It's just what it is and he just has a bigger hurdle to overcome to stand out from the pack. The challenges that Guthrie faces are just as daunting for everyone else, including established players like Greg, Vai, Satch, Petrucci, etc. In fact, the old stalwarts may have tougher of a time keeping their fan base and sounding fresh album after album. That's a tall order when one already has a catalogue of albums and there's that challenge of doing something different while not alienating your fanbase. Compared to that, Guthrie has a pretty clean slate.

As mentioned on various threads and posts on this forum (as well as elsewhere on the Net), GG had his chance to release an album on the Shrapnel label in the early-90's or so. He turned down the offer from Mike Varney to stay in the UK and focus on honing his skills and develop a more distinctive style. In hindsight, I think that turned out to be a wise decision. Listening to GG's old stuff from over a decade ago, it's safe to say that he didn't have the musicality, feel, tone, taste, voice, style, maturity, etc. that are evident in his playing now. There's a good chance that had GG decided to record an album for Shrapnel back then, he would have ended up in the black hole of "where-are-they-now?" category.

Pretty much all of the GG tunes that we've become familiar with are a decade or much older. It's impossible to say what GG's newer tunes are like, so I think it's a little too early to comment on what GG's songwriting skills are like. It seems that he's got those new ones in his vault and won't be releasing them until the debut album with fresh new arrangements and performances of the old tunes are out on the debut album. I sense a lot of potential in Guthrie's writing based on what I've heard of these fairly old tunes. My thoughts are that he definitely has the potential to write tunes and complex compositions that can stand the test of time. I don't think most of us would be here if we didn't think he could.

I like to think the past decade or so that Guthrie spent honing his skills and developing as an all-around musician in relative obscurity was a really good thing. He's always had the chops. Mike Varney isn't going to invite someone over from UK to record an album on his label if he didn't think Guthrie had monster chops way back then. And as for comparisons to Greg Howe, Greg's been around almost 15 years now with nearly a dozen albums under his belt. Guthrie is just getting started and has a blank canvas in front of him. They both have their unique set of challenges. For Guthrie, it's a start of a journey. For Greg, he's in midst of his. Both have endless destinations. It'lls be very interesting to see how it all plays out. As I always like to point out, the exciting thing about Guthrie is that he's just stepping out and we can't even begin to imagine all the musical directions he will take in the years and even decades ahead.
_________________
Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[ShredMeister]

Hey there,

Well, this is a healthy example of a discussion forum, just throwing in opinions and discussing stuff, which shows there´s something to learn for everybody... COOL!

Well, again, I disagree. I must say it sounds to me a little pretentious that a guy like GG can surpass someone like JP or PG at every level. I mean, let´s face it. No matter how much you like GG, there are other good players too!! What I am trying to say is that if someone as good as JP has put most of his practice hours on picking, that must have some kind of result... In other words, I think GG has spent tons of hours honing many other skills that JP lacks of, and I agree that he (specially in the last two records) sounds boring, but the fact that he has not focused so strongly on picking must mean something.

To be honest, I like picking and try to hone my skills there as much as possible. I can´t disagree more on Shawn Lane´s picking. I just don´t see how Lane can be considered such a great picker when he can´t play anything if he starts on a downstroke. And by the way, playing softer is way easier than playing stronger. I don´t think hearing the attack is the shred way. Hearing the attack is the right way. You just need to hear the best, Al Dimeola, John McLaughlin, Paco de Lucia... Are these guys shredders? Hell no!! But you can hear the attack perfectly! To me, right hand technique is all about dynamics. PG has so much control over them. He can play picking lines combined with legatto, picking lines that sound stacatto, play really soft or hard all in one phrase.

As for JP´s playing... Well, I think any fan of his playing will know that JP´s strength is in his writing. He really is horrible improvising. But if you go back to some of his earlier records and listen to some of his solos, there is something for every mood. Want slow solos with tons of feeling? Listen to the intro to "Hell´s Kitchen" or the solo in "Lines in the sand" to name just a few. Pieces of art. Want a power ballad solo with feeling that is intense? "Another day". Want a solo with many techniques creating an awesome piece of music? "Under a glass moon"... There are many other examples, so please, don´t dismiss JP so quickly...

Btw, I am still looking for a song from GG where he does not play fast...

On the other hand, I totally agree with Ed that GG has just taken off and that he will surely take us on a hell of a ride. Can´t wait to get to the next stop!!

Cheers
_________________
"Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"

John Petrucci

[AL]

In Reply to Alexkhan.To refer to the saying,'its better to have loved and lost,than never to have loved at all'.. You make it sound like a good thing that guthrie didnt take up that shrapnel deal? No offence.But that was a stupid decision based on nerves and guthries lack of confidence back then im sure.

Im sure greg howe and co. felt that they were far from at the top of their games or had found their voices back then. But they still went for it. And ok you can say 'where are they now?' But who cares,we have gotten countless years of listening enjoyment from most of those where are they now players! they can go to their graves knowing they gave it a shot and released at least a few works.

It's ridiculous that guthrie hasnt released anything yet. No two ways about that and I'm sure if you quizzed Guthrie, and he was honest, he would admit he was lazy. Guys like Greg Howe are far from over. Greg will have as many years left playing as Guthrie. The only difference is that Greg already has tons of recordings to be proud of. Don't get me wrong, I love Guthrie and I think he is amazing, but to praise him for hangning around for well over a decade to hone his skill?

Varney wouldnt have asked him in the first place if his skill wasnt up to scratch. Didn't do Greg Howe, Paul Gilbert or Richie Kotzen any harm and they too have just started to find their voices just now like Guthrie has.

They are a hell of a lot more mature in their playing and their technique and songwriting skills have developed just as Guthrie's have I'm sure. But again while Guthrie was honing his skills in England transcribing for guitar mags those guys where working hard on their music while honing their skills at the same time.

I reckon if Guthrie went with Shrapnel back then he would have progressed faster. He would have been hanging around with the right people and would have to got to work with the most talented people out there. I wasn't saying that Guthrie's position at the moment is pitiful but he could have been a lot further and better established had he got off of his ass. He probably had the skill to record an amazing album when he was 8 and now he must surely be in his 30's and we are still waiting and before you start going on about "so what he doesnt have an album,what difference?" it's every difference.

An album represents where you are at at that time with your playing. All the technique in the world means diddly squat without composition skills! We know he has the technique for sure! How many Guthrie songs can you hum in your head

Guthrie is one of these players who risks the whole thing of ending out saying,'well i could have if i wanted to'... For Greg and c.o at least we can say 'where are they now'? For Guthrie all that might remain of his legacy if he doesnt get his god damn album done is this forum!!

I know he has done the Asia thing and for that at least he has got started but we all know thats not gonna let his potential out..

If I have offended any Govanites I apologise. I love him as much as you guys..

And to shredmeister I wasn't saying that Guthrie is a better player than those guys (although technically he could out play them, me reckons ) but I was referring to his alternate picking technique.Easily on a parr with them. I have seen many guys who can pick as well as Gilbert and Petrucci and better. Petrucci was amazing back in his 'Images and Words' Days..He knew how to pen a good tune.But he has taken the 'Yngwie' route and hasnt really tried to reinvent himself but then again nothing wrong with that. If its not broken, dont fix it; but at least try and keep it up to scratch or stop releasing stuff knowing damn well that everything you release no matter how crap will be bought by us POOR fans But i wont start referring to other players as I remember what happened to poor ol' gods (Jason Becker) name when he was mentioned in this forum
Let me still finish with saying Guthrie rules

[James W]

[frankus]

In response to AL's post.

I editted this so it was easier to read, I've not tampered with the content except to put the i's in upper case and add some full stops and capitalising..

I kind of agree with this and disagree, I'd reckon getting a lecture like this Guthrie'd pull a hang dog expression and then a kind of irreverent "yes-mum" ("yes-Mom" for the Merkins out there ) expression and a cheeky grin.

I reckon he likes playing with musicians and the rest is just the rest. Where's the appeal to him in making an album? Some extra revenue (I don't think he really needs it).. okay getting his name spread further (I don't think he cares ) okay recognition of his peers ... (he's got that already, from what I've seen). Of course those are my views and just based on observation.. they could be wrong..

I find it amusing that you go on at Guthrie, 'cause in a way I think he deserves/needs it.. but I also disagree because it's his life and what he wants to do with it.. if he wants to take it easy (if that's what he's doing), let him, noone said good guitar players have to be compulsive or that they must leave records of their musical journey.

Stuff like this forum might serve a greater good other than letting a set of guitar freaks enthuse, rail or flame each other about other guitar people.

I think you've got to be patient and reserve judgement... I don't think Guthrie's age affects anything; look at Wes Montgomery's career (yeah I chose that one for it's ambivilence - I'm ambivilent about the whole thing )
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