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Fusion Licks!
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fatigueofheart



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:21 am    Post subject: Fusion Licks! Reply with quote

Hi, can somebody post some commonly use Fusion licks, runs. I 'm looking for one in particular, you know the one, the one that all fusion players use from greg howe, gambale, garsed, etc. THanks!
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes, that one!!!

Sorry, just joking... I'm wondering now, is there one lick that all Fusion players use???


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Noise Epidemic



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I know of...

I mean, when most of the fusion players get into bluesy phrasing they tend to use a lot of the same SRV/King/Clapton-ish phrases, but that goes with just about any guitarist not neccessarily fusion players.

A lot of players get into bluesy phrasing and then all of a sudden they'll take it out half a step, up or down for just a little bit, then go back home. Henderson does that kind of stuff a lot, and so does Guthrie, only it doesn't usually sound like the way Henderson does it, but it's the same idea. That's probably the easiest way to get a "fusion-ish" sound to your playing with only a little work. It's more of a phrasing thing than anything.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did some bored doodling on the train home the other day and came up with a really crude chord substitution philostophy.

Check here for details: http://forum.intermusic.com/viewtopic.php?t=26390#409818

but I've always been interested in making pentatonics work a bit harder, they're like the monosyllabic words of the english language .. so you could try using the idea that pentatonic patterns represent certain modal ideas to govern some substitution principals.

Dominant chords can be used with any pentatonic pattern
C dim chords can be used with C minor pentatonic patterns or Bb major pentatonic
C maj chords can be used with the 3rd position of the major pentatonic or the minor pentatonics a semitone up.
C min chords can be used with all patterns except the two major ones.

And the lick all jazz fusioneers know is bar 7 of Giant Steps Wink

All of this might be true... it really might be Cool
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was giving this some thinking, and there sort of is an idea that a lot of fusion guitar players use that I've noticed (Frank Gambale and Don Mock are two that come to mind) . It's when you play the Maj7 arpeggio up a minor third from the tonic of a Min7 chord (i.e. over DMin7 play a FMaj7 arpeggio) - You know, over one of those boring Min7 vamp things that some people call fusion Laughing

Damn... don't get me started on Coltrane, Frankus (can I use both of those names in the same sentence)! I've been digging into the Walt Weskopf & Ramon Ricker book called "Coltrane: A Player's Guide to His Harmony"... some good ideas in there, but man, how can you apply that stuff on the fly, for me that's the challenge!


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aiwass



Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 4
Location: Norwegian, living in Zürich Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M@ wrote:
I was giving this some thinking, and there sort of is an idea that a lot of fusion guitar players use that I've noticed (Frank Gambale and Don Mock are two that come to mind) . It's when you play the Maj7 arpeggio up a minor third from the tonic of a Min7 chord (i.e. over DMin7 play a FMaj7 arpeggio) - You know, over one of those boring Min7 vamp things that some people call fusion Laughing


That's just implying 9th chords. I made a chart once of all the different combinations (playing one 7th chord over another). Essentially, what you do is play the 9th arpeggio without its root (it's implied in the underlying harmony), which becomes a 7th chord. For instance: Am9 (A,C,E,G,B) as Cmaj7 (C,E,G,B). In simpler terms, just play the arpeggio formed by the top 4 notes.

This also works with rhythm playing, as long as another instrument is implying the root.
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fatigueofheart



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, thanks guys for posting......i'm a bit theory challenged but i understood most of it as it sounded pretty "basic", getting pratical would be the hard part for me! anyone else care to post?
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fatigueofheart



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M@ wrote:
I was giving this some thinking, and there sort of is an idea that a lot of fusion guitar players use that I've noticed (Frank Gambale and Don Mock are two that come to mind) . It's when you play the Maj7 arpeggio up a minor third from the tonic of a Min7 chord (i.e. over DMin7 play a FMaj7 arpeggio) - You know, over one of those boring Min7 vamp things that some people call fusion Laughing

Damn... don't get me started on Coltrane, Frankus (can I use both of those names in the same sentence)! I've been digging into the Walt Weskopf & Ramon Ricker book called "Coltrane: A Player's Guide to His Harmony"... some good ideas in there, but man, how can you apply that stuff on the fly, for me that's the challenge!


Cheers


care to post an example of this? i can't seem to get it, too much theory for me!
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... Here goes (forgive my oversimplification and vain attempt).

If, for example, you are looking at a simple Dmin7 chord vamp, essentially you *could* treat this as being in the D Dorian Mode (the second mode of C Major). This means you are basically playing the notes from the C Major scale but using the D as the tonic or key centre.

Therefore, the notes in the D Dorian Mode are D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D. If you build 7th chords (these are 4 note chords) from each of these tones, you would end up with these arpeggios (arpeggios are the notes of the chord played linearly):

Dmin7 (D, F, A, C)
Emin7 (E, G, B, D)
Fmaj7 (F, A, C, E)
G7 (G, B, D, F)
Amin7 (A, C, E, G)
Bdim7 (B, D, F, A)


So you can, in theory, play any of the above arpeggios against the funky Dmin7 vamp, however some arpeggios will sound sweeter than others (and ultimately, it is up to your ears to tell you how to weave a story with the notes you have available). Some players like to play the Fmaj7 arpeggio against the Dmin7 chord, as well as the Cmaj7 against the Dmin7 chord, to evoke certain flavours.

You will also notice that hiding amongst the min7 chords are minor pentatonic scales (just like a blues scale without the flatted 5th). E.G. You will notice you can play the D blues scale, E blues scale and A blues scale, so you can play these scales against the Dmin7 too (although, using standard "licks" from the blues scale in this context, to my ears, can sound a bit pedestrian).

The best thing is to find some arpeggio shapes for the above chords and then record yourself laying down a funcky Dmin7 chord on tape (get out that wah wah pedal!) and then practice these ideas to see how they sound. Of course, this is just one approach and there are many other ways to look at it. Entering into the realm of "outside" playing is another area worth exploring...


The link below has some good info from a well respected jazz guitar player... You should be able to find some theory there as well as some chord, scale and arpeggio shapes + examples. Also, Bruce Arnold has a number of books you can buy on Amazon. His ear training stuff is especially good. Enjoy!


http://www.arnoldjazz.com/workshop/wslinks.html



Cheers
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, my basic chord scale chart in my previous post is one can short of a six pack. Should read:

Dmin7 (D, F, A, C)
Emin7 (E, G, B, D)
Fmaj7 (F, A, C, E)
G7 (G, B, D, F)
Amin7 (A, C, E, G)
Bdim7 (B, D, F, A)
Cmaj7 (C, E, G, B)

I missed out the Cmaj7 before Embarassed


Oh yeah, Guthrie's first book Creative Guitar One also explains these concepts too (probably better explained than me!).
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fatigueofheart



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats man for posting, unfortunately i'm a bit ahead of that..lol. i think my lack of theory limits me from playing more advance fusion stuff.. crap, time to hit the books.....
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool... can you give us an example of the one particular lick that you say all the Fusion cats are using that you are looking for?


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Will



Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got the MVP project cd with frank gambale and allan holdsworth and there is one gambale lick that repeats a lot through the cd.

It seems to literally take a couple of pentatonic notes and repeat them 1 fret lower then fall back into something else.

In A minor the lick would be something like:

C, A, G, E, Gb, Eb --- then into some apropriate shape 2 frets out.

Of course the way its phrased is the key to making it sound good.
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UncleFester



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will wrote:
I've got the MVP project cd with frank gambale and allan holdsworth and there is one gambale lick that repeats a lot through the cd.

It seems to literally take a couple of pentatonic notes and repeat them 1 fret lower then fall back into something else.

In A minor the lick would be something like:

C, A, G, E, Gb, Eb --- then into some apropriate shape 2 frets out.

Of course the way its phrased is the key to making it sound good.


funny how Allan does not repeat himself Laughing
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Venza_fire



Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

www.lorenzovenza.com ---->---lessons Smile
Byez!
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