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Absolute Music

 
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 5:18 am    Post subject: Absolute Music Reply with quote

In classical music lingo, there's something called the "Absolute" music and then there's something called "Program" music. It's essentially one or the other. Absolute music simply means music for music's sake - a fugue, a concerto, a sonata, a symphony, etc. Program music is music that describes a scene, a non-musical idea, overture to an opera, etc. Program music really came into the forefront during the Romantic era with composers like Wagner, Berlioz, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaicovsky, Dvorak, etc., although the Absolute school of Brahms, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Strauss, etc. continued that tradition as well.

In modern pop music (including rock and jazz), it'd seem that it's mainly "Program" variety. But in jazz, as it became a more and more sophisticated instrumental idiom, the "Absolute" form seems to have taken over, where composers and musicians start out with purely musical ideas and forms without any thought being given to subject matters and the like. I bring this up as Guthrie seems to be the "Absolute" type - composing musical ideas with only music in mind, not external non-musical factors and subjects on hand such as love, history, politics, or whatever that may be inspirations for compositions.

Judging by the song titles, it seems they're afterthoughts after the compositions are written, arranged, and performed. I read that Pat Metheny also names a lot of his tunes after they're composed and recorded. How many of you guys write in that manner or do you always have a subject on hand that inspires you to write something about it? I'm sure that Guthrie would be able to do the "Program" kind of thing as well, but it seems it's all just "pure" musical ideas that flow out that Guthrie puts into the compositions. Any other thoughts?
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 1100
Location: Chelmsford/Arachnipus

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love program music.. I get dewy eyed listening to Rimsky Korsakov or some Stravinsky.. and Gershwin..

I don't know that I agree with the Jazz being an absolute form, for instance Charles Mingus' "Scenes from the City", "Noureeg" or Pastorius's "Portraits of Tracey" ... Monk - "Round midnight", Coltrane's "After the rain", I even think "Afro Blue" is a kind of narrative to a kid running and singing in america, it could be a scene in africa or america and the piece relays that ambiguity.. but I think that's interpretation.

I think absolute music should be a bit like modern art, you should prove your ability to capture scenes and emotions before being recognised as a composer of absolute music.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and bring back hanging.
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankus wrote:
I love program music.. I get dewy eyed listening to Rimsky Korsakov or some Stravinsky.. and Gershwin..

I don't know that I agree with the Jazz being an absolute form, for instance Charles Mingus' "Scenes from the City", "Noureeg" or Pastorius's "Portraits of Tracey" ... Monk - "Round midnight", Coltrane's "After the rain", I even think "Afro Blue" is a kind of narrative to a kid running and singing in america, it could be a scene in africa or america and the piece relays that ambiguity.. but I think that's interpretation.

I think absolute music should be a bit like modern art, you should prove your ability to capture scenes and emotions before being recognised as a composer of absolute music.


I'd agree that jazz started out as "Program" form, more as a pop form of songs that got extended, but in its continual development from swing to bebop to cool to modal to fusion, etc., many artists such as Miles, Coltrane, Coleman, Rollins, etc., did take the absolute approach to their constant innovations and development. That's really what I was referring to. I do agree that a big part of it is still in program form.

I did ask Guthrie if he ever wrote tunes or musical ideas based on some things or places he has seen and he said that once in a while that certain events and things like that will indeed inspire him subconsciously to write certain things, but it's never really planned out that way.

In classical music, Beethoven's Symphony No. 6, aka "Pastorale", is often viewed as birth of program music. I must say, that of all the Beethoven symphonies, No. 6 is the one I enjoy listening to the most.
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art



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I write songs with a singer, and to me all of our songs are 'absolute' music, but the lyrics she writes usually have a meaning behind them that's personal to her, so the songs are 'program' music to her.

It could be said that it all depends on perspective.

It could also be argued that all music is program music as it is used as a way of conveying or expressing feeling and emotion, or in other instances a means of competition.

Please excuse me, it's 3:36am and I am far from sober, tut tut these Brighton clubs.
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been listening to a bit of Debussy these days... not sure whether that is "Program" or "Absolute", but I find it's really good for the imagination when listening. Some of the twists and turns that he takes are really quite amazing!

I've got a sneaking feeling from listening to Steve Vai's latest album that he listens to Debussy (among others).


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dave...



Joined: 25 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an artist, everything comes down to what i'm expressing- and this is inevitably a reaction or a process of thought, even if it starts life as a musical whim. This, perhaps, is simply the nature of writing music with a rock band, rock is a vehicle for so much more than the music itself (thank god, otherwise it'd be mostly rubbish). But i've recently becom intrigued by the idea of 'musical playfulness' and this relates to absolute music.

Someone was writing of how Bach was a musical genius (well-tempered clavier etc.) and how the basis of this genius lay in how his music transcended ideas and simply became like he was playing with the notes... toying with them to see the effect it had. A sense of musical playfulness even in the most poignant of his work... is this perhaps a by-product of the music lacking ideaological boundaries that we are used to?

Does anyone have anything the can add or reiterate for me? i'm keen to undertand this aspect of music.
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alexkhan



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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave... wrote:
As an artist, everything comes down to what i'm expressing- and this is inevitably a reaction or a process of thought, even if it starts life as a musical whim. This, perhaps, is simply the nature of writing music with a rock band, rock is a vehicle for so much more than the music itself (thank god, otherwise it'd be mostly rubbish). But i've recently becom intrigued by the idea of 'musical playfulness' and this relates to absolute music.

Someone was writing of how Bach was a musical genius (well-tempered clavier etc.) and how the basis of this genius lay in how his music transcended ideas and simply became like he was playing with the notes... toying with them to see the effect it had. A sense of musical playfulness even in the most poignant of his work... is this perhaps a by-product of the music lacking ideaological boundaries that we are used to?

Does anyone have anything the can add or reiterate for me? i'm keen to undertand this aspect of music.


This is why I brought up the subject - so we can discuss the matter of writing and playing music for music's sake only without any ideological boundaries. Bach wrote a lot of stuff for the church (the Cantatas) and that stuff certainly had limitations on what he could write. But a lot of his "secular" compositions were Absolute music at its finest. In fact, he could probably be viewed as the first Absolute musician based on works like the Well-Tempered Clavier, the Brandenburg Concertos, and especially the Art of the Fugue.

It's all about musical ideas only and that tradition was carried on through the Classical period by Mozart and Haydn and to a large degree by Beethoven until Beethoven himself became absorbed in European geo-politics as well as the thought of expressing deep human emotions and the world around us through music - Symphony No. 9 being the greatest example. But Beethoven carried on the Absolute form till the end as well with his String Quartets. Beethoven was the bridge between Classical and Romantic periods and it's monumental testament to him that both the Absolute school led by Brahms and the Program school led by Wagner considered Beethoven their idol and primary influence.

As for Guthrie, he strikes me as more of an Absolute musician than someone who writes and performs in a Program sense. I think that would be the case with most sophisticated and virtuosic instrumental music. It's really about creativity in musical ideas and emotions are subject to how the listener perceives them. What kind of emotion does "Ner Ner" provoke? How about "Wonderful Slippery Thing"? How about "Sevens" and how about "Fives"? You don't really draw mental pictures of non-musical stuff when listening to these compositions or in the playing. There is plenty of feel and emotion, but even that is drawn in the same way a classical musician is performing a sonata or a caprice.
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M@



Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually think "Dave..." hit the nail on the head by talking about "A sense of musical playfulness"...

When I listen to all the great players and composers/improvisors (of most styles and genres), it is this "playfulness" that really comes out, and I've never really thought of it in this light. So thanx for bringing that to my attention.

Think about it, there is a certain playfulness in the playing of Guthrie, Vai, Beck for instance, that is undeniable.

I'm gonna start incorporating more of this "playfulness" in my approach...


Cheers
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frankus



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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find listening to Zappa helps for playfullness. Either from the timing changes or sheer level of joking around that goes on during a live performance. Moving to Montana stopped after Terry Bozzio fluffs the intro and replayed slower for Terry's benefit. Or the live version of Joe's Garage that descended into laughter
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shredrulez
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guthrie definitely strikes me as an "absolute" musician.
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