Guthrie Govan Discussion

[James W]

I noticed that many amazing alternate pickers (Shawn Lane, Yngwie, Jason Becker, Paul Gilbert, to name but a few) are also very good at playing legato... I seems to me that once you can pick fast, you clearly are training your fingers to move in the correct way, so it takes a lot less effort to learn legato... there is only one anomaly I can think of -John McLaughlin however, for all I know he is proficient at 'legato' playing.

Should we then spend most of our time practising picking as this would mean that we'd get a good picking and therefore legato technique?


J

[metal_insomniac]

I used to think concentrating on my alternate picking would result in a more proficient legato, and, to some extent, it did, only early on though. They are vastly different techniques (Maybe not to a person watching), and need to be approached as so to really conquer either. Alternate picking requires much more effort from your picking hand, and most practise on this technique is done learning to synchronise both hands. Whereas, with legato, your picking hand becomes nearly obsolete. Legato requires a much different fretting hand technique, also; Think of how you hand works when fretting during an alt. picking run, it doesn't need to slam down/pull off with very much force, and your pick is what's causing the initial start in the vibration. Then think of how your left hand works during a legato run, it needs to cause the strings to vibrate only by the force it exerts when slamming down or pulling off (Though, pull offs are more caused by the angle your finger removes itself from the string).

So, to some extent, your legato can benefit from alt. picking excercises (Mainly finger independence, in my view), but will grow more rapidly if it is looked at as a seperate technique, and practised as such.

Haha, wow, sorry for turning this into a mini essay

Jonathan.

[alexkhan]

Players who specialize in legato type of playing like Holdsworth, Bill Connors, Brett Garsed, Greg Howe to a degree, Gabel, TJ Helmrich, Joel Hoekstra, etc. tend to do that better than guys who are known for strict alternate picking: Gilbert, Morse, Petrucci, Yngwie, etc. The latter could certainly do the legato thing great as well, but there's something to be said for guys who really focus on legato style of playing. They have a certain type of fluidity in their lines that the pickers don't seem to have even when the pickers don't pick and just use their left-hand and/or tap.

I think it really depends on what kind of sound you're going for and you'll adapt your technique to get that sound. Personally I like the sound of both and prefer a nice balance between the two styles. It's just more variety of sounds to draw from. From a technical standpoint, the guys who seem to do both extremely well equally are Lane, Guthrie, Greg Howe, and Vinnie Moore from what I've heard to date. Vai does both very well, too, although I don't think his alternate picking is quite in the league of guys like Yngwie, Petrucci, Gilbert, Morse, or Guthrie. Greg Howe is also an awesome alternate picker but doesn't really do it much as it simply doesn't seem to be the sound that he's going for most of the time.

Picking every note real fast is certainly more difficult than just fretting the notes with the left hand or in conjunction with right-hand tapping. There is certainly more coordination involved. But picking every note is a different kind of a sound and it ultimately comes down to what kind of sound you'd like to produce. It certainly doesn't have to be one or the other. You can vary the attack of both (left-hand hammer-ons and pull-offs as well as picking with the right-hand) to increase the dynamic range of both styles of playing. For instance, you can work on your left-hand mechanics and strength so you can fret a note and have it louder than your normal right-hand pick attack.

Guthrie really excels at using both to such a degree that he literally blurs the line between legato type of playing and staccato alternate-picking style of playing. The legato style requires building up a lot of left-hand strength. Guys who specialize in legato know how to vary the dynamics with the strength of their hammer-ons and pull-offs. When you're picking with your right-hand, your fretting fingers don't have to "think" about those types of subtleties. So when you think about it, the legato guys have to work on a lot of things that the alternate-pickers don't really think about. Ultimately, I think it serves you best to have as much of both as possible at your disposal.
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Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
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[M@]

Agree regarding both techniques - it simply depends on the sound effect you are trying to achieve.

I used to be a strict alternate picker (al la Al Di Meola - albeit not in the same league), but then got into some legato after hearing Allan Holdsworth. He is the master in my books for that. I also like some of Satch's and Vai's legato runs...

These days I'm getting into "Economy Picking". Recently purchased Jack Zucker's "Sheets of Sound" book and that is jam packed full of great exercises and examples. Now when I play scales etc using Economy Picking I feel like a beginner!!!

Where does it all end???
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[alexkhan]

[RD]

In my little solo over someone else's backingtrack (http://home.wanadoo.nl/robindorland/mp3/RD_contest.mp3) , I used pretty much all techniques mentioned in this topic: Alternate Picking, Economy Picking & Sweep Picking. I only use hammers & pulls (legato) when it's really the best choice, musically speaking. The music should tell you what technique you should use in my opinion. This is why I think you should be able to do it all if you're a serious pickstyle player.

And your instrument also matters a lot; accoustic or electric... I think alot of electric legato-only players sound weak on accoustic. They don't have an option; they can only do hammers & pulls.

In the same way a lot of electric players who ARE able to pick every note still sound weak on accoustic, because they aren't used to pick in a decent manner. If you are used to just touch the string when playing electric, instead of picking a bit deeper, you won't sound good on accoustic 'cause you don't have the option of turning up the volume; you won't have the whole dynamic range that you should have. Picks like the 'Stylus' pick should therefore be avoided because the whole idea behind it is totally wrong if you want to have the whole dynamic range in your picking sound.

I used to be a legato/sweeppick player...not because I wanted to be, but because I couldn't pick every note. My alternate picking is still way behind on my sweep picking (speedwise) because of this stupidity.

Therefore I think it's not smart to limit yourself to just one or the other if you want to have a universal pickstyle technique.

[James W]

Wow thanks for all the replies, all dually noted and acknowledged.

I'm more proficient at legato, and I like that sound, but I have started feeling a bit lazy focusing on something I'm good at, also I realised the positive ramifications of becoming a good/fast alternate picker, and the pejorative aspects of legato:

Positive about alternate picking:

1) It can be done either acoustic or electric.

2) The type of guitar you use (i.e the action) doesn't matter so much.

Negative about Legato:

1) Can only really be done on electric.

2) Guys who specialise in this have an extremely specific set up to get the sound they want; e.g Holdsworth, Garsed.

3) Generally can only be done on guitars with an action so low, and with distortion.


I guess legato opens up options of tapping... but maybe this is just me being all 'the grass is greener on the other side' but I feel I should practise alternate picking more, even if it does comprimise my legato technique just a bit.


Can Steve Morse play legato?


J

[sumis]

[James W]

[alexkhan]

I read an Allan Holdsworth interview a while back and he said that when he pulls off after a hammer-on he lifts the finger straight up to make the pull-off sound as smooth as possible instead of typical approach of yanking on it to the side to get more volume out of it. When you think about it, great legato technique does require a lot of thought and practice to make it sound smooth, dynamic, and musical. It's easy to run your left-hand fingers run all over the fingerboard, but I think it forces you to be more creative in your runs and how to keep it smooth and fluid sounding as you change strings and play wide intervals.

I've seen Holdsworth live about half-a-dozen times now and he picks a lot more than most of us would think. But his picking touch is so precise that he makes it sound just like a hammered or pulled-off note unless he does want to dig in with the pick to accentuate a phrase. He's really good at sweep-picking as well. He's so smooth at it that you don't think he's even picking the notes. I guess what I'm getting at is that great legato playing is extremely challenging as well. Ultimately it's the ideas you get across that matters more than which technique you use.
_________________
Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[sumis]

[RD]

I heard a GREAT tapping (tapping!!!) solo on a nylon string guitar by Eddie van Halen. Don't know the songtitle, but it sounded great on that recording.

My point was NOT that hammers & pulls could not be done on the accoustic. It just doesn't have the volume you may need when being in a crowded room full of chatting people. That's what Ney Mello said and I totally agree with him when it comes to picking theory.

There may be exceptions. In that Van Halen song, it sounded like he was pulling up the strings with the right hand to let the notes 'BANG' when more volume was needed. But then again, what if you want ALL the notes during a certain part have that volume? Then you must play all those notes with right hand.

The most important thing in my opinion is still that it's always better to be able to pick every note AND to be able to use hammers/pulls so you have a choice and can let the music tell you what to do. You'll sound more complete as a player. I mean, when I listen to Satriani, I simply miss some solid picking because it's always that eternal legato stuff he's doing... I like his tunes though... but this can actually make me stop listening to a guitarist.

[Alun]

[tafolla-howe-govan]

Speaking of guys who have a command of almost all of the modern techniques, has anyone here heard Joey Tafolla's latest album "Plastic"? I really don't care for his 80's neo classical exploits or his early 90's hard rock albums, but his latest offering (released in 2001) is much different. His legato is superb, and his picking, sweeping, tapping are right up there with the best (but his legato stands out to me!). Anyways, I highly recommend that album

[alexkhan]

I think a good case in point of how Guthrie blurs the line between legato and staccato are these two clips which I had posted on the Media section:

Hide and Seek

http://www.online-discussion.com/GuthrieGovan/Photos/Hide_N_Seek_Solo.mp3

Lucky Seven

http://www.online-discussion.com/GuthrieGovan/Photos/Guthrie_Burning_Jan_20.mp3

The fast passages on Hide and Seek are almost all tapped along with left-hand legato. The fast passages on Lucky Seven are almost all alternate-picked (or economy-picked based on what I can see as he changes strings). The Hide and Seek "legato" lines sound sharper and more staccato than a lot of the lines on Lucky Seven which were all picked. It's all about how you apply the techniques to get the sound you want.
_________________
Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.