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fatigueofheart



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:50 pm    Post subject: Help! ! ! Reply with quote

K, I'm getting frustrated! ! ! ! i cannot improv to any fusion or jazz stuff at all! ! ! ! ! i kinda spend all my times all these years working on technique rather than phrasing. i can sweep, economy pick and stuff. but i can't seem to apply it when i'm playing fusion esque stuff. i mean i can improv to almost anything, not tastefully but i can pull it off. i listen to mostly shred stuff like chris impelliterri, malmsteen, joe stump, bucket head, Andy Timmons (my guitar god), al dimeola, john maclauglin, ron thal, paul gilbert, allans holds worth, scott henderson, jason becker (my other guitar god),mattias and more i mean i can play these guy's stuff with ease (cept buckrthead, mattias and bumblefoot) but when it comes to my own solo stuff. It sounds too generic, i mean it sounds the same whether i'm playing metal, rock or blues even if it's phrased a little different. how do i break out of this??? btw, i'm no pentatonic baby,in fact i hardly use pentatonic in my playing.
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, welcome to this board. I think the best way to start is starting to listen to players who are really well-known for great phrasing. Guthrie should prove to be the bridge from the world of shred to fusion/jazz/blues, etc. I'd also recommend Shawn Lane, Allan Holdsworth, Scott Henderson, and Brett Garsed as guys who could steer you into a new direction.
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fatigueofheart



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i do listen to shawn lane and guthrie stuff. the thing is i can't play the way they do phrasing wise..
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's more of a mindset issue than specific techniques or theoretical reasonings. Perhaps you need to figure out ways to break up the lines and figure out what to do during those breaks and slower passages, find which notes work well over certain chords and break out of the box pattern mentality of just applying scales and arpeggios over a progression. Perhaps you need to just build a large vocabulary of commonly used blues and jazz licks and see how you can fit them in your playing. I'd recommend the "Sheets Of Sound" book mentioned here on another thread. If you've got the chops and it seems you certainly do, this book should open new doors for you.
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Noise Epidemic



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I bridged my "shred" phrasing to more of a fusion style was simply by listening to fusion and jazz players, like many that have already been mentioned. I've heard it been said a lot of times that to really understand jazz, you just have to listen to it. Phrasing is a certain feel you have while playing, and you just have to do your best to immitate what you want to sound like. Don't just listen to guitarists either, check out other jazz players like John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, etc. Just submerge yourself into it, and of course learn some theory just to help you understand what you're trying to do. Learning theory itself isn't going to give you good phrasing. It may open some new doors for you, but the phrasing itself is a whole different world. Kinda hard to explain I guess. Crying or Very sad
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govango



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am an out and out rock player playing pentatonics and modes. My theory knowledge is average but since I came on here and seen the clips of Guthrie my thirst for knowledge has grew. I want to improve myself and begin playing some of the kind of stuff that Guthrie is doing. I love that sound and i'm totally converted. The thing is I don't know where to start in terms of theory. Should I learn to read music or does it not matter that much? Also what books are out there to aid my learning. I'm also thinking of finding a jazz teacher. I've already been playing 13 years and I feel that my playing is not improving and this could be the move I need to make to improve myself.
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jordan



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learning to read music is a great asset for ANY player to have, but its not directly related to music theory. For the past few years I've been really swatting up on all things theory-related, yet I've only had to learn to read music in order to progress on the classical guitar.
As for books, its stating the obvious but both of Guthrie's Creative Guitar books are absolutely packed with useful theory....and of course page after page of great licks.
Hope that helps,
Jordan.
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govango



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jordan wrote:
Learning to read music is a great asset for ANY player to have, but its not directly related to music theory. For the past few years I've been really swatting up on all things theory-related, yet I've only had to learn to read music in order to progress on the classical guitar.
As for books, its stating the obvious but both of Guthrie's Creative Guitar books are absolutely packed with useful theory....and of course page after page of great licks.
Hope that helps,
Jordan.


Yes it is a great help. Thanks. I can read basic notation and simple rhythms but I would like to improve.
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jason_m



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly recommend all of the great instructional materials written by Frank Gambale. I was in the same position, but Frank's instructionals helped my playing tremendously. Another book that I always recommend is "Al DiMeola: Guide to Chords, Scales, and Arpeggios". Good luck!
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Will



Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i first started trying to play Jazz, i pretty much decided I was crap and moved on. It wasn't until I started to teach people that I started looking at things from another perspective. I was trying to play over new chords and new changes in a different style, and I realised it wasn't working because I simply didn't know enough.

I think a good idea is to learn arpeggios over different chords. Don't think of them as shapes, think of them as notes - linking them from one end of the fretboard to the other. Also when it comes to chords, it helps to come up with your own voicings following theory, rather than mirroring chord charts etc.

I know this isn't exactly reffering to fusion. But i would personally call myself a fool if i spent all my time trying to play fusion without covering the basics. Its like someone skipping the pentatonic scale, and starting on slash licks! crazy
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bill®



Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said in another post, transcribe the solos (and comping and everything else) of the people you want to play like, THINK about what their doing harmony-wise, play along with the recording, always feel the pulse (tap your foot)), and try to emulate the nuance of their phrasing/dynamics/etc...

IF YOU DO THIS, IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU NOT TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY LIKE YOUR FAVOURITE PLAYERS

This is not bullshit, it is absolutely 100% true...which is not to say it's easy. Transcribing Guthrie or Holdsworth or Gambale isn't exactly a walk in the park, but if you practise enough, you'll be able to do it. If for the life of you you're unable to transcribe that kind of stuff, that means you can't yet hear it, which means you probably shouldn't be trying to play (if you want to play it well) and should practise transcribing easier stuff.

The points made about learning your arpeggios and chords are very important, but if you transcribe well, you will learn most of it along the way.

Again, TRANSCRIBING IS THE KEY TO LEARN ANYTHING YOU WANT. If you figure shit out youself, you learn so much more in the doing than if you have a teacher (or anyone) explain it to you. Of course it's cool to be shown things by people, but working it out is better for your brain!

I think posts like fatigueofheart's do well to illustrate that being a good musician is 99.99% in the mind and ears, not the fingers.
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EricT



Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like bill says, transcribing is the best way to learn. Learn every little detail and nuance in the masters' phrasing.
But my advice is to get a teacher. A good teacher can help you with transcribing if you're not sure you got it right, help you analyze what's going on and critique your soloing in a constructive manner.
You'll also have someone to push you, to force you to "step outside your comfort zone"
IMO, taking lessons is the best way to enhance your playing.
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bill®



Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree EricT, but there are the exceptional individuals who don't seem to need one-to-one teaching. The patron saint of our forum for example. Wink
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EricT



Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bill® wrote:
I totally agree EricT, but there are the exceptional individuals who don't seem to need one-to-one teaching. The patron saint of our forum for example. Wink


Don't you just hate them? Razz
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Carlo



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in addition to what everyone else said

if you're note choice is poor......make sure you understand all the basic arpeggios and their relationship with chords and progressions to make yourself aware of what notes to emphasize. When a person sounds really"soulful" and melodic, most of the time it's because they're nailing those chord tones.

If you're just shredding over a scale, without that undrstanding, then you are just relying on luck in finding the good notes.

Of course playing the "wrong" notes sound cool too but make sure you know the basics first.

When it comes to playing fusion or jazz, knowing your apreggios and how they apply to each chord is imperative. Widdling is just not gonna work in that realm.
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