Man...the most stupid thing happened to me, Ed. I watched your avatar-pic again and I remember that when I just arrived on this board, I thought the guy on that picture was you. Then later, I saw you on foto's and knew it wasn't you. It took me a couple of months to realize that the guy on that little pic is actually Guthrie...*smash* How fu*k*ng stupid I think it's because I saw Guthrie with a pony tale mostly (on the dvd).
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:37 pm Post subject:
RD wrote:
Man...the most stupid thing happened to me, Ed. I watched your avatar-pic again and I remember that when I just arrived on this board, I thought the guy on that picture was you. Then later, I saw you on foto's and knew it wasn't you. It took me a couple of months to realize that the guy on that little pic is actually Guthrie...*smash* How fu*k*ng stupid I think it's because I saw Guthrie with a pony tale mostly (on the dvd).
Hehe... My wife would never allow me to grow my hair like that!
Guthrie looks like your typical rock star with his hair down. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Speaking of Mind-Blurring Speed...
alexkhan wrote:
Guthrie non-chalantly said that he was able to hit 21 NPS! And I'm sure he was talking about alternate-picked notes. I'd say things start getting blurry at around 18 NPS and even 15 NPS is considered plenty fast.
Well, I'm almost positive it's either not alternate picking or he just measured it wrongly. Guthrie is certainly one of the fastest alternate pickers around, but he can't accurately hit anything beyond 20nps using that technique. Of course, the key word here is accuracy. Many people, like Chris Impellitteri and Francesco Fareri, are getting these spastic arm movements, and in short bursts they're hitting the strings very fast. But are the right and left hand coordinated? No, they are not, and this results in the pick hitting more notes than the fretting fingers can fret, and the result sounds like a mess.
Accurate pickers like Shawn Lane and Michael Angelo Batio do not use these 'techniques', and since they have a very controlled playing style, they all have a certain point where they can't go any faster. For Batio, it's around 16nps alternate picked, for Lane it's 18nps alternate picked. Both based on many audio and video clips, done by a friend of mine named Willie Jordan, infamous for his interest in picking and measuring picking speed.
Listening to examples of Shawn Lane playing at these velocities is a mindblowing experience, and an example of the very boundaries of what the human body can do in these situations. It's about accurately using your wrist to pick a series of notes 18 times in the duration of one second, in Shawn Lane's case often string skipping these sick patterns. And that's the very edge of what someone like Lane was physically capable of using that technique, and I've never heard anyone going beyond that.
A Greek guitarist named Theodore Ziras is another person who is able to reach astonishing speeds with this technique, about 18nps playing simple patterns. It's impressive to watch his videos and observing his economical movement while playing. Not one movement is wasted, he's got it down to the smallest possible movements possible to play these things. Impressive to watch, but very dull playing and music, so don't expect anything other than a display of good technique.
And please don't flame me, I'm just trying to get some facts straight about this whole speed thing. I'll invite Willie over to the forum, he's the one with the most knowledge on alternate picking I know of.
By the way, did you happen to see the thread on Petrucciforums where bakerman was analyzing Ziras' technique and found dozens of flaws in the videos linking to a possible faking? It was interesting.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:42 am Post subject:
Well, I'll bring up the matter again to Guthrie when I see him next time - which could be soon since he's going to be over in LA to record Asia's next album. It wasn't a serious matter. After a few minutes, we were like looking at each other going, "Why are we even talking about this stuff?!?" And we just changed the subject mumbling, "Yeah, whatever..." I know for a fact that Guthrie's just not into that kind of playing because he never mentions the aforementioned speed players when he'll be raving about so many other players ranging from Scott Henderson to Greg Howe to Bumblefoot to IA to Pat Metheny to Paco DeLucia to Scotty Anderson to Brent Mason to Jeff Beck to Derek Trucks to Jimi Hendrix to Eric Clapton to McLaughlin to Scofield and on and on and on. Actually, most of the time, when I ask him what he's listening to these days, it's not guitar music at all - Bjork, Zappa (although his music does have a lot of guitar here and there), techno, trip-hop, Stravinsky, classic jazz, alternative pop, etc.
But getting back to the subject on hand, I'll find out what he did to come to the 21 NPS measurement. On the "Not Again" transcription article he did for GT magazine over 10 years ago, it seemed he had no problem playing those licks that measured out at 16 NPS (someone told me that that's what it measured out to).
All I know or care about is that Guthrie has as much picking chops as is necessary to execute his ideas and don't really see the point of being or getting any faster. I've seen him noodle playing things that he normally doesn't play in his own music and I can honestly say that some of it was the most impressive display of chops (alternate picking, legato, sweeping, 8-finger tapping, etc.) I've ever seen and I've seen an awful lot of great players up close over the years. Most of you guys haven't seen him in such a context. I've probably seen him play in person for over 20 hours and I still feel like I've only seen a small percentage of what he could do. You guys have to see him play Indian raga stuff on a fretless sometime. To date, that's the most amazing thing I've seen him do purely from a jaw-dropping factor.
Ultimately, it's about ideas. I always like to say, it's the brain chops that matters the most and the physical chops comes next to keep up with what's going on in one's brain. If the lines aren't interesting and don't have movements that hold your interest after 15 seconds, speed really has very little value. There are very, very few players known for monster chops who interest me from a musical perspective. Besides Guthrie, my favorite players off the top of my head are Metheny, Beck, Jimi, Greg Howe, Henderson, Gilmour, Scofield, Page (Led Zep days), Landau, Doug Aldrich, Brett Garsed, and, of course, Lane - players who are generally more respected and recognized for ideas and style than chops.
Well, all this being said, it'd be interesting to know just how fast Guthrie can play, just for giggles. So, what are the fastest licks that are not alternate-picked (legato, 8-finger tapping, etc.)? Does it go up to 25 NPS or higher? _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
speed picking-I'd like to see Michael Angelo get destroyed by Mike Stern or John Mclaughlin, or somebody who really is a master of that technique. Guthrie has one of the most devastating picking techniques ever, for sure....total mastery. Does he does economy picking style, at all? I use that quite a bit, and it's super easy to do compared to the alternate technique. Of course, with his alternating technique is so good, he doesn't have to change anything.
it's interesting that non-guthrie fans (or those who prefer their heroes over guthrie) come here to dispute that guthrie is not the best or the fastest or whatever.
By the way, did you happen to see the thread on Petrucciforums where bakerman was analyzing Ziras' technique and found dozens of flaws in the videos linking to a possible faking? It was interesting.
No, but I have heard that he might be using playback for some of the videos.
Well, all this being said, it'd be interesting to know just how fast Guthrie can play, just for giggles. So, what are the fastest licks that are not alternate-picked (legato, 8-finger tapping, etc.)? Does it go up to 25 NPS or higher?
Not sure, as those other techniques are much harder to measure than alternate picking. But I have never heard any licks faster than 30nps, at least not any licks played accurately. And accuracy is something that is important in both the playing and the measuring. I'm sure most of you have heard of Marcus Paus and his record attempt at 44.6nps or so. Was it a hoax? Well, yes and no. He was and still is a very fast and technically gifted player, certainly among the fastest I've ever heard. As for the record attempt, it was simply a case of innacurate measuring by people who didn't do their job right. Actually, in the book it said 446nps, which is just a typo.
This just shows how innacurate many of these numbers can be.
it's interesting that non-guthrie fans (or those who prefer their heroes over guthrie) come here to dispute that guthrie is not the best or the fastest or whatever.
Yeah, it is, I don't see the point of doing that. Fortunately, I'm a huge fan of Guthrie, I just rely on facts instead of fanboyism.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject:
Yngtchie Blacksteen wrote:
alexkhan wrote:
Well, all this being said, it'd be interesting to know just how fast Guthrie can play, just for giggles. So, what are the fastest licks that are not alternate-picked (legato, 8-finger tapping, etc.)? Does it go up to 25 NPS or higher?
Not sure, as those other techniques are much harder to measure than alternate picking. But I have never heard any licks faster than 30nps, at least not any licks played accurately. And accuracy is something that is important in both the playing and the measuring. I'm sure most of you have heard of Marcus Paus and his record attempt at 44.6nps or so. Was it a hoax? Well, yes and no. He was and still is a very fast and technically gifted player, certainly among the fastest I've ever heard. As for the record attempt, it was simply a case of innacurate measuring by people who didn't do their job right. Actually, in the book it said 446nps, which is just a typo.
This just shows how innacurate many of these numbers can be.
Thanks, Yngtchie. Can you provide some links to clips (audio or video) of all this super-fast stuff (super fast and accurate) that you're talking about? _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Thanks, Yngtchie. Can you provide some links to clips (audio or video) of all this super-fast stuff (super fast and accurate) that you're talking about?
I would if I had the time and server space to upload all the files, but right now I only have one example, this one being Mr. Theodore Ziras showcasing his picking abilities.
I think that what sets truly great fast pickers part from the rest is the ability to change the metric pattern while executing lines at warp speed. That (and choice of notes of course) is what makes fast stuff interesting to listen to. This is what guys like Guthrie, Lane, Malmsteen and Howe excel at, and where players like Petrucci, Michael Angelo and Paul Gilbert - in my opinion - fails. You can almost hear the metronome clicking in the background when they're playing.
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I think it's because I saw Guthrie with a pony tale mostly (on the dvd).
And I'm sure he was talking about alternate-picked notes. I'd say things start getting blurry at around 18 NPS and even 15 NPS is considered plenty fast.
