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Why Some Don't Like or Get Guthrie
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:00 am    Post subject: Why Some Don't Like or Get Guthrie Reply with quote

I'm always spreading the word on Guthrie whenever I get the chance and like anything else in life, some people love him and some don't care for what he does. It's cool. I certainly don't expect everyone to dig or get what Guthrie is up to, but by now, I've talked to a lot of guys who are not into what he's doing and thought I'd mention some of their comments. I can totally relate to some people not enjoying what Guthrie has to offer since I can say the same about a bunch of great players myself. It's all very subjective and comes down to personal taste.

There's a tendency for some to view Guthrie as a very methodical player who's not very spontaneous. Of course, I tend to disagree, but sometimes it makes sense to try to view things from another listener's perspective. One guy said, "He's a great technician but things sound all worked out with him." Hmmm... Many people say the same about Vai, Satch, and Petrucci. Another guy mentioned that Guthrie is just too precise, that the "human element" seemed to be "missing". And some guys who are more into the old school kind of stuff just aren't going to really dig Guthrie's style even if they acknowledge that he's a great talent with a style of his own. And then, some say that although Guthrie is great in a variety of styles, he doesn't have his own voice or anything really unique.

There is a classical type of precision and flow in Guthrie's style and playing that sometimes sounds real studied. Are these criticisms valid? And a jazz guy said that he felt Guthrie's solos in the Fellowship setting, from a rhythmic point of view, were too much on the beat - very "European" and "not American". I guess these kinds of precision that Guthrie is now well-known for just aren't going to fly with some people. Like I said, I'm cool with what people have to say. It's interesting to listen to respected players' opinions about what Guthrie does. I don't think any one of us expects every guitar music fan, even the guys into shred/fusion instrumental stuff, to dig Guthrie inside and out.

And a lot of it is just personal taste in the particular tonality of the lines being played or the compositional style. To most of us here, Guthrie has the feel, phrasing, tone, creativity, and things like that to go with his otherworldly technique and command over the guitar. But some don't hear it or feel it like we do. Ultimately, I guess that's what it comes down to. Guthrie isn't going to appeal to every Vai, Satch, Petrucci, Gilbert, Lane, and Yngwie fan out there either just like some of us can't really get into any of these aforementioned names.

I don't know how to quantify that taste factor. Objectively speaking, I'm not going to say that Guthrie is a "better" player than Lane, Holdsworth, Howe, Henderson, Metheny, McLaughlin and many others because he's not. He's doing something different from those guys and that different thing is something a lot of us, including myself, prefer most or some of the time. People often say, "that guy's playing just speaks to me." And it's so true. Some people say, "Guthrie is an amazing player but he just doesn't speak to me like EVH does", for example; it could be a bunch of names ranging from EJ to Morse to Bumblefoot to Keaggy to many others. And I'm thinking, "Hmmm... but I don't feel that way at all. Interesting how differently people perceive things..."

I suppose it's like our taste in foods. Is there a reason we like certain foods and dislike others? No, you either like it or your don't. For instance, I'm not into Thai food. At all... It just doesn't agree with my taste buds or my sense of smell. My sister and some friends absolutely love Thai food and have tried to turn me onto it by taking me to what they say are excellent Thai food restaurants but afterwards I'm just thinking, "Man, I really did not enjoy that at all and I'm never going to eat Thai food again." I can understand why people like it so much, but it just isn't for me. The same with the types of the opposite sex that we find more attracted to than other types even though they're all attractive or beautiful.

People sometimes ask me, "So, why do you dig Guthrie so much?" Well, I could probably write a book about why Laughing, but I just say, "You know, I don't know. His music and his playing just clicks with my sensibilities, I guess." It doesn't mean I don't dig a bunch of other great players because I certainly do. Maybe a lot of it is just our upbringing and tastes that have developed over many years. But some of these things just can't be explained. And some people just don't and won't get Guthrie or like what he's doing. And now I've got absolutely no qualms about it. I used to when I saw some posts on other forums dismissing Guthrie as "just another shredder" or that "he doesn't have feel" or that "he doesn't have his own voice" and things like that. Now when I read or hear things like that, well, that's cool and just move on.

I mentioned this awhile back to Guthrie as well. Guthrie's response was that at least they really knew what they liked and didn't like and he was respectful of that. But people's tastes change. There were many players who I didn't get or care for initially that I really grew into loving: Mike Landau, Jeff Beck, Pat Metheny, Holdsworth, Howe, McLaughlin. Then there are those that I really loved in the beginning or at some later time and kind of faded away from and even came to dislike.

Sorry for the meandering post. Just thought I'd muse and share these thoughts and see what some of you guys think.
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sieuminh



Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Ed, first of all I think it's amazing the amount of stuff you've writen AND work you've done. Maybe you should write a book indeed ...

As to why people don't like certain players, well there can be quite a few books about that! There are certainly musical reasons, and I guess there are (even stronger) psychological reasons.

Ray Gomez, who obviously is a very intelligent guy and my absolute favourite player, once said that people emotionally invest in players they like (at least that's how I remember what he said).

I think that's very true, and have seen quite a lot of that in people. It's like they have to dismiss other players to defend their favourite player, as well as their ego.

Of course that doesn't apply to everyone who doesn't like a particular player.
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treeduck



Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Manchester, England

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post again Ed.

Ed must have material for several Guthrie biographies contained on this forum. I hope you're saving them all for about ten or fifteen years down the line, it'll save you a ton of note taking work.

Very Happy Wink
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 570
Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed, you're too nice to the GG critics Wink Well, not really, but some things are not really a question of taste. I've also heard people say that Guthrie is too technical, "a guitar machine", not spontaneous and so on. But it's an objective fact that he's not unspontaneaous, that he's a great improviser, that he (and this is important but not much discussed) often takes chances and sacrifices technical execution for musical ideas or even humour. I believe that this opinion comes from the fact that it takes a while to pick up your jaw from the floor, so to speak. GG's timing and chops are probably standing somewhat in the way for some listeners. Guthrie has a supernatural way of playing in the pocket that I think can put off some people since that kind of timing is mostly heard in less spontaneous playing.

But apart from these objective truths Very Happy , you're of course free to like it or not. I certainly do.

.
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: 'Too precise'... Reply with quote

I don't think saying Guthrie is 'too precise' is a valid criticism at all.


Because, saying that he's 'too precise' doesn't actually negate the fact that he still could be totally spontaneous in his improv, it just doesn't end up sounding like Jimmy Page. Laughing

90% of the great classical composers were great improvisers. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt etc. I'm pretty sure they were technically very precise.

Then there's the 'feel' thing... and IMO, I couldn't ever even begin to understand someone sayin he hasn't got a good feel... his vibrato is wonderful, and at the very least perfectly accurate.
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ShredMeister



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if you ask me, I donīt like GG as much as I like other players mainly for 2 reasons...

One is that he on purpose tries to stay away from the standard stacatto sound made popular by many players among who I like PG, JP, MAB, etc. I LOVE to hear that picking attack, love to hear that 'machine gun' approach, and that is something GG does not seem to like much, so he wants to stay away from it. Thatīs totally fine, his taste on that technique is not mine, so obviously I donīt dig his picking as much as, say, JPīs. Now, I am not saying he canīt pick like JP, but that he chooses not to, and I think that is good, I simply donīt like it as much.

The second reason is that I simply donīt feel touched by his compositions. They sound like fun pieces of music, but I have never been touched by them in the same deep way a piece like, say, 'Tender Surrender' touches me. There is some type of melodic content, some kind of emotional playing that appeals to me that I simply donīt hear from GG. On top of that, I think he tends to favor major progressions, whereas my taste tends to be more on the minor side.

I donīt know, I guess Ed is 100% right. Just a matter of taste. An artist is obviously gonna favor certain ways of writing music that are based on his taste, on his likes... The listener will or will not share that same taste and thatīs why we all like different players, I guess.
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShredMeister wrote:
I donīt know, I guess Ed is 100% right. Just a matter of taste.


No he's not, since GG favours minor keys in his compositions, and that's a fact, not an opinion. Cool In the same way as Vai in his best moments often tends to utilize lydian (a major mode) concepts. But whether you LIKE them or not is another story Very Happy


.
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, Guthrie is an incredibly proficient picker, immaculately clean and preposterously fast. There is a clip of a super-fast and clean picking part in his piece 'Fives' in a thread round here somewhere...
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ShredMeister



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in that case, it is me whoīs wrong, because Ed didnīt say anything about it... However, most songs I have heard by GG are not minor keys... Or at least didnīt sound as such.
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is:
http://rapidshare.de/files/7662179/Guthrie_Govan_fast_picking_clip_1__wav_.wav.html
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ShredMeister



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James W wrote:
For the record, Guthrie is an incredibly proficient picker, immaculately clean and preposterously fast. There is a clip of a super-fast and clean picking part in his piece 'Fives' in a thread round here somewhere...


Hehehe... I knew it!!! I made sure I clearly stated I had nothing against GGs ability as a picker, I know he is very good, I simply donīt share his taste... But even doing that, I knew somebody would feel the need to state how good it is and defend him... Ah, the fans...

Yes, I know he is very good, I simply donīt like the way he wants it to sound. GG is so good that can sound like PG if he wants to, but he simply does not like that, which is exactly the style I like. It is simply a matter of taste, we like different things.
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James W



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I guess I did sound a bit overly zealous. Embarassed
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ShredMeister



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James W wrote:
Sorry I guess I did sound a bit overly zealous. Embarassed


No issues. Nothing like loving something that passionately. I understand, and I think it is a good thing, as long as that love does not blind us from seeing the truth and being critical. Just thinking outloud, not that I am acusing you of that.

But yes, you are right, GG is phenomenal. Have you seen that clip of GG shreddin on NAMM along with BBF on stage? There was also this little kidd from the US... Canīt remember his name. GG goes for it like crazy and he rips! Veeeery nice picking run.
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treeduck



Joined: 13 Apr 2005
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Location: Manchester, England

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all just a matter of personal taste no need to fight it - one man's Django is another man's Jack White.

Wink
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tonesnob72



Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Guthrie critics Reply with quote

I have had the same experiences while playing his cornford promo. I have heard that my whole life "it's too technical" or it sounds worked out. Should I break my hand before I play next time or do you think someone could just pick up a guitar and improv a song like fives. Of course not, it usually shows ignorance. I have been subscribing to GT for a while and have heard guthrie nail and I mean nail almost every style I have thought of from jeff beck to chet atkins and then some. Unless your a guitar player it seems alot of people won't ever get Guthrie. I am going to stop myself from ranting but just wanted to let you know the feeling is mutual. I am hooked on Guthrie. Laughing
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