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Is it the hands or the gear?

 
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Orbital



Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:34 am    Post subject: Is it the hands or the gear? Reply with quote

I know this question gets asked and debated a lot. So I'd like to hear it from the experts on this great forum. How much of the tone is from one's hands and how much is it from the gear?
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wire_frame



Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a mediocre guitar player can have decent tone just from their gear, but it takes a skilled and experienced player to bring out all the subtle nuances and tones from the same setup.
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 570
Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

someone like ed who's tried and used just about everything out there (and not out there) will probably say that it's all in your hands. i think he said something in a recent post at the suhr forum (or somewhere) that hi end gear is not for the listener ... that makes a lot of sense.

the amount of distortion or the hi frequency damping of a delay is definitely in your hands ... oh, i mean gear Very Happy some people have a very distinctive touch though. most of the great ones, but also not so very good players actually. i think that guthrie and ia eklundh would be instantly recognizeable if they swapped riggs, and probably if Yngwie and SRV did it as well (008 vs 012/013 strings!).

if i swapped gear with mike landau (a blasphemous thaught) he would sound great, maybe with a bit lesser tone, and i would sound crap, maybe with a somewhat less crappy tone. the reason i've ordered a suhr is that it will leave me with no excuses. if i suck after i get my custom superstrat, then i know i'm not meant to sound good Laughing
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say it's about 80% in the hands, perhaps a little more or a little less depending on the player. When I say "hands", I'm really talking about the player all-around. It really starts with the mindset of the player and how he or she is going to approach the instrument. Obviously, it doesn't just happen with guitars but other instruments as well. I remember attending a classical piano recital and there were a bunch of students playing the same piano and they all sounded so different.

The player formulates the approach to the instrument and that affects the player's attack, touch, dynamics, intonation, fretting, sustain, etc. Attack with the pick on the string is obviously where it all starts, but I can't help but wonder if how the guitar interacts with your body and hands has anything to do with the tone as well. The kind of pick and strings you use, how hard you hit the strings, how you fret the strings with your fretting hand on the fingerboard, etc., all have an effect on the sound.

I've seen all kinds of players play through all kinds of gear at TM and I still see that at Suhr or wherever. Assuming that two players are of equal caliber, they will sound completely different tonewise through the same gear. I've seen that over and over again. I remember that after Guthrie's clinic at TM in Jan 04, some guys played through Guthrie's rig and none of them got even close to sounding like Guthrie tonewise. And they were really perplexed by how different they sounded from what they heard from Guthrie for two hours.

I work at a gear company but I'm going to be really honest and say that gear is overrated. Laughing I mean, it's very, very important, but only if you really know what you want out of your tone. If you don't know and go searching for some magical piece of gear that will all of a sudden make you sound amazing, it's just not going to happen. Great tone develops through practice and experience like anything else. You have to figure out how to get it out with your hands, not rely on the next new piece of gear to get it for you. If you understand the whole signal chain and know in your heart the sound you hear in your head, then a certain piece of gear may make that last 5% difference that'll make you feel like you've found the Holy Grail.
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 570
Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexkhan wrote:
I work at a gear company but I'm going to be really honest and say that gear is overrated. Laughing I mean, it's very, very important, but only if you really know what you want out of your tone. If you don't know and go searching for some magical piece of gear that will all of a sudden make you sound amazing, it's just not going to happen. Great tone develops through practice and experience like anything else. You have to figure out how to get it out with your hands, not rely on the next new piece of gear to get it for you. If you understand the whole signal chain and know in your heart the sound you hear in your head, then a certain piece of gear may make that last 5% difference that'll make you feel like you've found the Holy Grail.


And this you are telling me NOW? Laughing

.
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guitar is where it all starts. Many electric players (mostly inexperienced players) think that the amp is the most important part of the signal chain and it's certainly very important, but the guitar is where your tone starts and what's physically interacting with you. An amplifier is exactly that: a device that amplifies your guitar. Shit in, shit out. Beauty in, beauty out. I mean, unless we're talking about $50 Gorilla amps or something of that sort, a good player is going to sound great through virtually any amp to the listener. A mediocre or an inexperienced player who doesn't have the rudimentary stuff together still isn't going to sound good through a $3000 boutique amp.

The more experienced and the better you get, you'll start thinking about the various woods on the guitar, the metal in your bridge (especially the block), the thickness of the neck and how it affects the tone, the type of fretwire, the magnets and the wires in the pickups, direct-mounting pickups to the body as opposed to having them on mounting rings or pickguards, the mass of the tuners on the headstock, etc. The acoustic sound of your electric guitar is like an ant. Then that ant gets amplified into a dinosaur. If you have a beautiful ant then the dinosaur will be beautiful. You pluck an ugly ant and you have one very large ugly dinosaur.

You simply have to learn by trial and error and will probably have to go through a bunch of gear to find out what works the best for you. I've certainly been there and done that. I could probably have a nice luxury car for the money I spent on going through all kinds of gear over the 20+ years I've been playing. Embarassed Laughing But there's probably no way around it. Hopefully, these words of advice can prevent some of you from making expensive mistakes. I know that when people start out, they naturally want to emulate the sounds of players they admire. It's a starting point, so I don't want to discourage that, but playing their gear won't make you sound like them because most of the tone is simply in the hands of those players you admire. Good gear is simply a tool for those sounds that the artists hear in their heads to be translated properly into actual sounds that we hear.
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 570
Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for your wise words. i hope you sensed the irony in my comment though. i've been playing for more than twenty years and used loads of different equipment, tried everything i've gotten my hands on, but never been a gear buff. i've had very few guitars in my life though, but always had instruments that have been carefully tailored for my needs. i've always put a great guitar first when it comes to gear, and i think i sound more or less the same through different riggs, even though different amps inspire to different kinds of playing.

i've never understood my musician friends who has been changing instruments and gear every week, searching for their sound. with reasonably good gear that's apropriate for your style anyone should be able to sound like themselves. i've never liked to listen to or play with players that play their amps and effects, so to speak. IA Eklundh played crappy guitars through a transistor radio for years, and I can't say his tone has improved since Wink

i'm certsainly not an outstanding player, but i've never hidden behind gear (and have often made a point of playing through shitty amps (a stupid point though)). nevertheless, i play better through better gear, and i'm proficient and experienced enough to tell the difference between high end gear and stuff that are just good.

i don't think gear has a sound in any MUSICAL respect, but players do! guitars are tools, aren't they? and the better the tools ... although, if i was to perform surgery on someone (horrible thought) i don't think the best scalpel in the world could help me Laughing fortunately, i do know my way around a guitar, and it just happened that i recently got the opportunity to get a new high end instrument.

i don't want to make this a thread about my stuff though Embarassed what do you people think: are there any great players who's sound are very gear based? are there interesting guitar players who's sound is generic but produces cool music?
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Javi



Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 78
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumis wrote:

i don't want to make this a thread about my stuff though Embarassed what do you people think: are there any great players who's sound are very gear based? are there interesting guitar players who's sound is generic but produces cool music?


I suppose if the guitarist is great, although his gear is an essential tool for his/her tone and ID, (most of the great guitarists rely on his/her mind, the way they handle physically the guitar and the way they use his musical vocabulary and expressions), as Ed said, most of his singularity will come from the person himself/herself and no from the gear. Gear is important, for example, when you are a novice and want a quick relieve in sound and want to try to escape from the routinely sound and find your best “speakers for your current voice”. Once you have found it, which it could be difficult, you still have the most difficult task: to make quality music with that “personal voice”. Most of the players we know are not based in gear in nowdays. ok, there are people with much more gain than others, but the great players, and we know most of them: GG, JS, JP, AH, SV, SRV, JH, GH, TM, JB, etc etc... rely on their capability like a guitarist. If they are gear based and you can only recognise them by this, I pressume it could be something missing on them. Rolling Eyes
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pimmel



Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 12
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think , equivalent to our hands, or maybe even more important ,is our brain, our mind and is our head.

basically,I think, our hands are just there to transform whatever stuff we have in our minds , to our instrument.mentally ,our brain is where it all starts from.otherwise , players like jason becker could have never composed an album like his last one , even though that ,physically, he is almost dead.so , in fact our brain plays another improtant role.

that's why every damn musician will always sound different from one and other and also , that's why everyone has a different taste of sound and shit. because it's our brain that decides what is good and what not-individually.


matti

ps: just my opinion , you dont need to give a shit Very Happy
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Javi



Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 78
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gear = Vocal Cords
What you do with that, that's another story. Wink
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thelordofcheesecake



Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to resurrect a long dead thread, but I was just listening to an album called "Stop" by Sam Brown. Now, on a couple of the tracks is a player who we all know and love not just for his playing but for his tone as well - David Gilmour.

For those of you who haven't heard the album, Gilmour's tone couldn't be further from what is expected of him - it's very digital. BUT you can still hear that it's him. Without knowing he was on the album, I heard one of his solos and knew it was him, then confirming my suspicions by checking the album inlay.

Suppose I'm just trying to give evidence to the view that "tone" is not "sound", although they are interconnected. Bleh, I'm tired from revision and not putting the point forth very well.
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Resi



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Don't worry, I know what you mean and fully agree. Wink
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godskid



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Joshua Tree California

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

interesting thread, I sure appreciate the thought that has been put into most of the comments.

I run a small production company (studio) in the high desert, I am also a obsessed player as well.

I have the opportunity to record some great, great players regularly. I always track electric guitars plugged straight into an amp. I've heard some amazing tones this way, tones that you would swear there was a chorus or some kind of spacial effect, amazing stuff, just hands, guitar, cable, amp.

That said I've played for almost 30 years, and I can't do the guitar+ amp= amazing thing. I don't find inspiration that way. I am inspired by the textures that certain effects and gear provide me. I need the gear to find the tone that inspires, once i've found it, it's all good. My hands follow suit.
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