Guthrie Govan Discussion

[alexkhan]

Guthrie's occasional and unpredictable ventures into the left field always make me smile even though it may initially make you go: The title track certainly has plenty of it. The first solo's ending phrase (not the intro leading into the main melody line) in 'Ner Ner' I find so cool and extreme. There are various high-pitched shrieks that jar you but they all make sense and enhance what are around them. There are Guthrie's trademark minor-second interval elephant belches. I like 'em!

Players like Satch, Vai, and Buckethead tend to venture into such territories of extreme expression, but here's another area that Guthrie outdoes 'em all with the extreme bends, squeals, screams, shrieks, burps, belching, groans, etc. The world isn't always so pretty and art reflects life or is it the other way around? Whatever the case, I can relate and Guthrie's weirdness and extremisms have his own signature and thumbprint on 'em. It's primal expression that can, at times, be a challenge to absorb, but it's one of those no-pain-no-gain kinda things. 'Hangover' has a good deal of it as well and it's all so appropriate - some very musical noise...
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Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.

[frankus]

Yup, me and a mate attributed our odd-ballness to both being lefties and flaunting it... we decided to make Guthrie an honourary left hander, but frankly he'd trumped our freakflag
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[Tore]

That is actually one of the things I appreciate most about Guthrie's music. He's there alongside a very small handful of guitar players (or musicians in general) that just seem like they can do no wrong on the intrument. No matter what squeal, pickup noise or even mistake they make it just seem to fit perfectly in the music. It's as if they have so much control over the instrument that they can just let go of the wheel and totally loose control and still come out alright. Kinda like Van Halen describing his solos as falling down the stairs and always landing on your feet.

[alexkhan]

[ShredMeister]

Well, for me, GG has that amazing phrasing quality, that even playing inside might sound outside... and he can make outside phrases sound very much home. Sometimes he reminds me of Brett Garsed in that department. Brett can play a simple dorian scale and make it sound completely out there, and I believe GG is very similar.
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"Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"

John Petrucci

[frankus]

I'm reading Mark Levine's book on Jazz Theory at present and it's a ripping read.

One of the things addressed from the get go is dissonance and consonance. Annecdotal stuff like playing the flat 5 in early days would result in excommunication, or that major 7th chords were usually substituted for maj6 chords since the 7th seemed too dissonant.. or even people writing to jazz magazines (not jazz mags ;^) to complain that using the raised fourth was killing jazz..

I kinda think of all of this when I'm playing.. and when players do something that makes me wonder how to replicate that. The biggest thought is that over the years the concept of dissonance is evolving and fewer notes are seen as "jazz notes".. basically people's aural palletes are growing more robust and finding the diatonic notes cloying... think of how your perception of stilton or gruyere cheese change and Edam just seems bland.

Another point the book raises is that some players have a more mature pallete and are playing melodies that to some ears seems "out" in fact the melodic concepts are just not in the collective conscious, but may be in a few decades.

For this reason, I think of two different terms: 'avante garde' and 'out'. Out is zany and wild, avante garde is too damn futuristic for yo ass
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[Resi]

[sumis]

[frankus]

I set about making a helix out of the cycle of fifths. If you take the major modes and work them out relative to C, you can then slap them next to the key signature that has the same notes in a cycle of fifths:

so they run

G maj - C lydian
C maj - C ionian
F maj - C mixo
Bb maj - C dorian
Eb maj - C aeolian
Ab maj - C phrygian
Db maj - C locrian

So there are 5 keys without the root note in them.. I think of these as more out.

if you do the same for the melodic minor and harmonic minor you end up with a fractured cycle of fifths with modes on them, and fewer gaps and several modes in some places.

If you do the same for the next item in a cycle of fifths there'll be loads of over lapping but you creep into the keys that don't have the root note in them, that's where the helix gets made, you end up in another key but the notes you play have a shifting context, eventually you'll get back to C but you'll have passed through all the other keys first... carrying the musical narative for that length of time would be hard on the ears, so you'd have to come up with a strong predictable progression. say like Giant Steps (minor thirds), since a 5th is made of a major and minor third every two minor thirds you'll land on the tritone...

Some day I'll make the 3d sculpture I've got in my mind and someone who hates theory can come along and set fre to it
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[nielsri]

Very nice Frankus!

I saw something similar (but not as good) a few years ago, demonstrating how to get smooth or jarring key changes. The closer the keys in your helix, the smoother the change will sound, the further apart the bigger the jump.

I like things like this which have a structure built on logic. I'm a big fan of the periodic table as well...

[liquidtension]

I picked up Levine's book about two years ago, and I seem to learn something new from it each time I pick it up.

Before Levine's book, I always approached music from a very "prescriptive" classical theory perspective, which was all I knew. Levine's whole approach really opened me up to viewing music "descriptively", which was quite freeing.

I really like Guthrie' ability to keep interest, momentum, and direction when he's playing outside. Theoretically, I understand it, but it's too much for me to process "on the spot" in the middle of a solo.

[frankus]

yeah, I think his idea of outside or inside is just melodies and perhaps a bit of "this melody might make people look a bit frightened". The theory has been internalised so it just happens and is controlled without needing to whip out a massive chart of concepts.
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[Resi]

[Tuddsound]

I have to agree, what once was musical heresy is now totally accepted. I was weaned on totally diatonic music and gradually got into jazzier players (but always with a ripping guitar tone). I think the general public is getting used to more adventurous sounds as well. Metal Bands like Rage Against The Machine and System of a Down throw a lot of dissonant sounding things into their music too.

Garsed is totally a master. I was watching the live footage on his instructional DVD, and my wife walked in and said how "nice" it sounded. She could tell that some of the notes were very jazzy, but his tone and feel made it seem palatable to her even though she doesn't like jazz. She said that Garsed doesn't "make her brain hurt" like some of the guys I listen to.

I think Guthrie has the same melodicism, but he can rip out some "brain hurting" jazz too.
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Paul Tauterouff
http://paultauterouff.com
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[Dee]

I agree with you about Brett Garsed, he's a monster. I knew it already, but this was confirmed to me after listening to previews of the new Planet X album. He shows a different side in Planet X with some lethal riffs!