Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: Is there ANYthing u miss in Guthrie's playing?
Its probably a stupid question to use as topic title, but ill try to explain it cautiously, i dont mean to offend anyone, im probably just as big a fan of guthrie's as you are
In any mood, I can listen to Guthries music and it will make me feel better.
At any point, when i feel a little demotivated (i study guitar-jazz), or when i feel i need some inspiration, i know i just need to watch some guthrie videos and ill be ready to practice and make music again. (or try )
That is of course, also because of his incredible versatility as a musician. And in every other player I hear, I recognise that Guthrie absorbed the touch,and feel of so many... Except for Scott Henderson. To me, these two are totally different (Guthrie's playing always occured to me as very straightforward and honest, whereas Scott has some kind of slinkyness i havent heard in Guthrie,especially in his bluesplaying)
Dont get me wrong ,i dont mean to start a "this player is better etc.." kind of topic. Id just like to know if any of u have felt like this.
Also, Ed, i believe Scott Henderson played at Tone Merchants some time ago right? I'd like your unsalted opinion about it,since your observations always had a profound honesty to them. _________________ Ok!
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject:
There is a good reason why Scott is one of Guthrie's very favorite players! PERSONALITY!
I've seen Scott live numerous times in the LA area and he's definitely one of the natural wonders of the guitar world. Scott is Scott and there is no one who plays and sounds quite like him. I recently saw him do a jazz/fusion gig with Steve Tavaglione on sax, Jimmy Earl on bass, and Gary Novak on drums and it was absolutely amazing. Personally, I prefer to see Scott in that sort of a context than his blues trio thing. Tavaglione really pushed Scott into new way out there territories that I didn't see Scott venture into in a trio format.
I know what you mean by Scott's slinkyness. He's got his own thing and I don't think we can expect Guthrie to emulate those personal inflections that are like thumbprints of other players' musical identities. When you get to highly individualistic players in the jazz/fusion realm, it's definitely not just a matter of getting down the notes. It's not hard to emulate or transcribe (as Guthrie himself noted in the interview) rock/shred players, but imitating players like Scott, Metheny, Scofield, etc would be a different thing altogether since it's not just about the notes in a certain sequence with these players.
Scott is someone who had ventured away from the rock realm many many years ago and has delved much deeper into jazz and blues idioms than Guthrie has. Guthrie is still, first and foremost, a rock player. Scott is most definitely not a rock player although that early rock influence certainly remains in his playing. Scott is first and foremost a jazz/fusion player with a strong blues roots a la Albert King and SRV. Can Guthrie do the same? I'm sure he can, but he's going to sound like Guthrie, not Scott. Is he going to be as good at it as Scott is? Probably not since this is all that Scott does while Guthrie's roots are rock with more Euro classical-type of influences in his playing and music.
They're just so different but great in their own ways. I could say the same about Landau - another amazing highly individualistic player. IMHO, Guthrie, Scott, and Mike are three of the top five most accomplished individualistic and creative all-around players in the world. For me, Jeff Beck and Pat Metheny would round out that top 5. They all have their very individual styles and no one else is going to sound quite like them. As Guthrie stated in the interview, what's most important in the end is the player's character and personality coming through. _________________ Ed Yoon
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject:
Well, to answer the question of the thread, no, I don't miss anything in Guthrie's playing as I know that we've all only heard like 25% of what he's capable of and that Guthrie will continue to evolve and even improve as time goes by. The sky is the limit when it comes to what Guthrie could do in the future. _________________ Ed Yoon
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As for the subject at hand, it's really hard to say. There are many things I'd love to hear Guthrie play, but no, I can't say there's anything I really miss in Guthrie's playing as of now. He can play pretty much anything rock-related, and he's great in a fusion context as well, what more could one ask for?
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:29 am Post subject:
Yngtchie Blacksteen wrote:
Oh great, another two-page essay from Ed.
What else am I useful for around here? _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
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Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
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Sorry to steal your duty Ed, but here is my 2 page essay
Well to be knit picky, which is exactly what I'm doing, I can think of some things he could be better at. But before I get into that, let me just say, this is the best instrumental album I've heard since Passion and warfare and have been pimping it to all my guitar friends, Guthrie totally blows my mind.
Also, I live in Cleveland, Ohio, and I'm a big basketball fan, and of course Lebron James plays for Cleveland, I don't think it's too far in left field to compare Guthrie and Lebron. Both represent the future for their respective field.
I see Guthrie get much the same treatment Lebron does in that people are very shy to say things of improvement for fear that Lebron will leave cleveland or whatever. But there are things which Lebron can improve on, his defense for instance, all though better than 90% of NBA players still could be improved, and that is not a bad thing, and you could say why knit pick? Look how great Lebron is. But because he is so great, and still has so much potential there is nothing wrong with pushing him to do better, and I think Guthrie is far from being satisfied and is probably working on stuff this very minute (such is the nature of music).
So enough comparisons. Maybe the only thing that really comes to mind is his comping ability for the jazz stuff. I have all the videos and he never really comps for himself during his solos. Being an accompanying instrument, it is kind of our responsibility to accompany ourselves when soloing if no one else is.
I personally have started playing in a Jazz/Fusion trio and that is something I'm constantly trying to work on. People like Jonathan Kreisberg (absolutly amazing) and Pat Metheny are really good at it. Of course Chick Corea and all other jazz pianist are awesome at it, and it is definetly easier for them but that doesn't mean we shouldn't push ourselves(guitarists) to be just as good (as pianists).
They say that in jazz all guitarists want to be pianists and in rock all pianists want to be guitarists, but I think in fusion all guitar players want to be sax players, thus all the single note stuff.
I hope you can see I'm being very, very very picky, because Guthrie has mastered more styles and techniques than any guitarist I've ever heard or seen. And if he never worked on the above I will still buy everything he will ever make, but it would be cool to see how good and live improvised comp/soloing he would come up with, it would certainly be other worldy.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject:
Hey Tim, I'm only too happy to share my duties here! It'd be great if we can get more folks to contribute their own 2-page essays.
Yeah, I find myself comparing Guthrie to some of the greatest athletes of all time as I'm a sports buff myself. The comparison to LeBron James is quite apt as the potential he has is just mind-boggling in basketball and he already is a great player.
I just got done watching Roger Federer coast through the finals of US Open tennis championship against Andy Roddick and, again, I couldn't help but compare Roger's complete game and dominance to Guthrie's prowess on the guitar and as a musician. Sure, music isn't a sport, but it's fitting in a way because there are so many aspects and disciplines involved in being a master of one's craft.
Federer doesn't have the most powerful serve. He doesn't have the most powerful strokes. He doesn't fly around like some other players I've seen, but he has a combination of great skills that I've never seen in a tennis player and I've been following tennis for a long time - since the 70's and keeping a keen eye on players like Connors, Borg, Wilander, McEnroe, Becker, Lendl, Agassi, Sampras, etc through all those years. Federer is absolute poetry in motion. He is just so beautiful to watch.
Now, as for Guthrie, of course he has plenty of room for improvement and he'll certainly be the first to admit that. I can see Guthrie working on comping for himself during the solos, but he has not yet struck me as a true jazz player. I've seen him noodle alone doing Joe Pass like chord melodies with walking bass lines and the like, so I know he's capable of doing a lot more with such techniques, but we have not yet seen him apply them in the music he plays. I'm sure we'll see it sooner or later.
And I do think Guthrie could still be a little more slinkier in his playing when playing the jazz/blues kinds of stuff a la Henderson and Landau. Scott and Mike are masters of playing in and out of time, sounding "drunk" but knowing exactly where they are and playfully moving ahead or behind the beats at will. Metheny is another cat who's got this really slippery nature that no one seems to be able to mimic. And things just flow like streaming water with Pat. I like to believe that Guthrie is working on these aspects of his playing. He is by no means satisfied and looks up to many many other players, so we can expect a lot more cool stuff from him in the future. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:03 am Post subject:
I should also add that I don't think Guthrie is ever going to just do something to show that he can do it. It has to be a part of his own unique style and something that he has really internalized to write and perform a piece of music that he can call his own. I've seen him do a lot of stuff that he hasn't featured on the album or during the performances and clinics. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
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And of course I suspect he has dabbled in it, with the jazz he does play he would never have got that far without checking it out.
I guess the most interesting thing for me would be to see what he would do with such a "comping" technique, I don't suspect it would be anything below astounding.
I guess I've just noticed a lot of "fusion" players always playing single note stuff, and it would be cool to see him kind of break ground there.
There isn't much I miss in Guthrie's playing, except sometimes I wish he would play some really obnoxiously disgustingly lethal heavy stuff! I don't think it's gonna happen, and I honestly am blown away by the guy's versatility already, he has shown so many styles... but occasionally I wish he would join Planet X and and use a 7-string to rip my face off.
I guess he's just not that kind of player, though.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:35 am Post subject:
Dee wrote:
There isn't much I miss in Guthrie's playing, except sometimes I wish he would play some really obnoxiously disgustingly lethal heavy stuff! I don't think it's gonna happen, and I honestly am blown away by the guy's versatility already, he has shown so many styles... but occasionally I wish he would join Planet X and and use a 7-string to rip my face off.
I guess he's just not that kind of player, though.
I have heard Guthrie play obscenely heavy metal kind of stuff. We were hanging out at a studio for Asia's last album sessions a couple of years ago and he was plugged into the board/computer and John Payne was going through the presets of the Amp Farm software. Every now and then John would end up in some death metal preset and Guthrie proceeded to play some outrageous super heavy metal riffs. He didn't seem to be particularly enjoying it as he hates the modeling stuff to begin with, but whatever preset John would bring up, Guthrie would play the perfect kind of stuff for that sound.
I don't think Guthrie ever got into the 7-string thing and he has never expressed interest in one. I know he's not into the Dual Recto type of "modern" mega distortion amp tones either. Guthrie doesn't like preamp sizzle or fizz nor does he care for mega-big bottom with scooped mids type of sounds either. But based on the little metal I heard him do, I'd love to hear him go for it on some whacked-out GG metal tune. If you do a search here, Guthrie talks about some metal players and bands he admires. He has certainly absorbed his share of good metal. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Well, I think the very thought of missing something in a player´s playing is sort of twisted, because then you are questioning the player´s own identity. A blues player is just that, a blues player, and it makes no sense to say he does not play shred tricks, because if that´s what you want, look somewhere else. In the case of GG, he´s who he is, no more, no less...
Having said that, if I was asked what would I add or subtract from GG to make him the perfect player FOR ME (a stupid a question as it is...), then I would say:
- I would like his picking style more aggressive and dominant overall.
- I would like him to stay more within the diatonic realm, specially in minor progressions.
- I would like him to write more metal stuff.
The rest is just fine
_________________ "Living comes much easier once we accept we´re dying"
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