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Originality & Uniqueness Factor
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Originality & Uniqueness Factor Reply with quote

This subject seems to pop up rather often on other forums about Guthrie's style and "voice". They say he's great and all but they don't hear much "orignality" or a "unique voice" like that of, say, Holdsworth, Vai, EVH, EJ, JB, etc. It's understandable to a degree, but one guy went as far as to say that Guthrie is a Vai clone, which most of us just can't agree with.

Guthrie covers so many styles and implements so many different techniques that it is often hard to pick out something that's really original or unique that instantly sets Guthrie apart from other players with a singular style and voice. I obviously hear a lot of little things in the characteristics of his playing and music that I feel are Guthrie's own, but they're not so evident to the casual listener or someone who's not totally into his style of playing.

The thing about many players with that original and unique style and voice is that they don't have the versatility or musical diversity we enjoy so much about Guthrie. So I wonder if that's the tradeoff. I still think Guthrie's got his own thing but I can understand that some others don't quite feel the same - to them, Guthrie is an amalgamation of all sorts of styles and techniques with lots of different tones, but doesn't have that singular original voice that's so easily identifiable in other legendary players.

So what do you guys think? What do you think Guthrie could do to have more of that individuality? Or is it even really necessary? Or do we even care? Personally, I don't think it's a big deal and that we can only wait and see how Guthrie develops in the future. I just know that Guthrie is still improving and maturing as a player and musician every day and that we've still got a lot to look forward to. I just thought I'd bring it up since it's something I've been seeing more and more of out there...
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Halcyon



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conceptually, a style is a defined paradigm of preference, an almost preconceived orchestration of a selective habit. Having said that, I think Guthrie is completely transcendental of style. You really can't predict what he will do next. This proves to be a hindrance for any preconceived pattern in playing. It isn't so abstract or unlooked-for that it seems like a complete transition between one "style" to the next, rather the spontaneity has become a style all its own. There is a subconscious aggregate in one player that we are used to finding in many different players. Albeit not in the least bit traditional, obviously wonderful things can come of it. Ultimately, not many are used to hearing so many complex elements in playing or composition. I think pinning Guthrie to a style, or vice-versa, would almost be doing him an injustice. I don't think it is so much of Mr. Govan establishing himself on a broader level as it is people finally coming to grips with what is actually going on behind his playing. On another note, constantly trying to characterize and analyze his playing takes away from the experience. Music is an open experience, only to be experienced with an open mind.

Matt
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halcyon wrote:
Conceptually, a style is a defined paradigm of preference, an almost preconceived orchestration of a selective habit. Having said that, I think Guthrie is completely transcendental of style. You really can't predict what he will do next. This proves to be a hindrance for any preconceived pattern in playing. It isn't so abstract or unlooked-for that it seems like a complete transition between one "style" to the next, rather the spontaneity has become a style all its own. There is a subconscious aggregate in one player that we are used to finding in many different players. Albeit not in the least bit traditional, obviously wonderful things can come of it. Ultimately, not many are used to hearing so many complex elements in playing or composition. I think pinning Guthrie to a style, or vice-versa, would almost be doing him an injustice. I don't think it is so much of Mr. Govan establishing himself on a broader level as it is people finally coming to grips with what is actually going on behind his playing. On another note, constantly trying to characterize and analyze his playing takes away from the experience. Music is an open experience, only to be experienced with an open mind.

Matt


Wow, what a cool post! Smile Thanks for the insight and your thoughts. That's a very interesting perspective and not something I would have thought of. I mean, I agree with what you're saying; I just never thought it all out and worked out such a concept of what Guthrie's unifying "style" is as you have so eloquently described here.
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jordan



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halcyon wrote:
You really can't predict what he will do next.


That's an interesting point, and totally true. There are so many parts on Erotic Cakes that catch me out every time I hear them - and I've heard it alot - how often does that happen on a guitar record?

Cheers,
Jordan.
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liquidtension



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if there is a gap between what our ears hear as Guthrie's uniquneness and the actual words we use to describe this uniqueness. When I hear Guthrie, there's no mistaking that it's Guthrie; but how to describe that? It's hard to pin him down to a few words. For example, Greg Howe could easily be described as "funky legato fusion", three very concrete words, just like "harmonic minor", "wide vibrato" and "sweep picking" automatically makes us think of one Swedish guitarist.

Guthrie must be unique; otherwise, we wouldn't all be so glued to him like we are....and it's definitely more than a mere wow factor of amazing technique.

When I try to describe Guthrie to others, I find myself using more abstract words or having to use long paragraphs, both of which make me feel like I haven't done Guthrie justice.

I think to pin Guthrie as a Vai clone really shows a level of musical ignorance. Uncle Skunk definitely sounds very Vai-ish because of the whammy and many of the inflections. But his actual lines are very much his own. On the one one hand, it sounds like something straight off of Ultra Zone; on the other, I can't help but think that Vai would have never come up with the kinds of lines that Guthrie is playing in that song. It's a weird blend of showing strong influence while demonstrating strong uniqueness.

For me, I have a hard time separating Guthrie's playing from his tone. I want to use the word "liquid" (not an intentional reference to my username) to describe his playing. Maybe liquidy fusion rock? But that's still so reductionist that it hardly does him justice.
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Resi



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like his playing. I really couldn't give a shit about a personal sound or not.

You're all a bunch of overanalysts Laughing
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Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I would agree that even though I can tell it's Guthrie when I hear I still feel he is searching for his true voice. But that does not worry in the least, I think he is very close. And as much as I like(well let's be honest, LOVE) Erotic cakes, it makes me more excited to think of whats to come then what is currently here.

I also have no doubt that he will have a very definable sound, in the near future. It's amazing how he has taken time to learn so many styles, and master them which has probably made it more difficult to define his own sound by how much he has learned.

And let's face it with his incredible technique he seems to have no weakness, which is what tends to make peoples styles. Greg Howe became a legato machine because his picking couldn't keep up, and Wes Montgomery because he never learned to use a pick. But b/c he seems so comfortable everywhere, I think it will take a little longer for him to develop his sound fully.

Anyway's he's great and will only get better, this I'm sure, I just hope he is a prolific chap and gets to work on some new stuff soon. Considering at least a few of the songs on the CD are over 10 years old I believe. I'd be more interested in what he's written lately in the last year or so.

I'm From Cleveland, OH and a band some of you may know here is Mushroomhead. They have been big here for sometime, but about 4 years ago they were signed to a major label, and their first album that came out was just a compilation of songs they had done for the 8 years previous, with no real new songs. Which was good, but it wasn't until their new releases came out that they started to really mature into their sound.

So in some ways I feel Erotic Cakes is him finally getting his shake and as compiled the songs from past 10 years or so, but he won't really define himself until the newest stuff comes out. Which is what I most look forward to.


cheers,

tim
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Yngtchie Blacksteen



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's a highly skilled Vai clone.
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alexkhan



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yngtchie Blacksteen wrote:
He's a highly skilled Vai clone.


Yup, the best one ever! Laughing

The funny thing is I haven't heard a single Vai fan say that over on the Vai forum or elsewhere. The guys at the Petrucci and Vai forums have been very receptive overall.

Then I check up on the EJ forum where I had a thread about the CD going and saw some unexpected resistance there and had to clamp on down. Really didn't expect that over there, but that's how things go, I guess...

http://ericjohnson.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2731
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a shame about the EJ Forum, I'd have expected them to be as wonderful and open minded as we are Wink
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modoc



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bravo...a tremendous display of closed mindedness. Well impressed Rolling Eyes
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Yngtchie Blacksteen



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how you can accuse guys like Guthrie of not being fashionable, and still be a fan of EJ...
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Dee



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry to say, but some of those people are completely clueless. And they act like Eric Johnson is GOD. Come on now. I know Eric can play, I know he's oh so tasteful, but really there's about 3 songs of his I like. The rest of it is watery and diluted, and actually, I find plenty of it quite boring.

Jimi and EVH are known for tearing the f*ck out of their guitars, and that's what people like to hear, that's why they are remembered, that is why they are "the greats". Eric, though lots of people enjoy his music, will never be remembered in the same kind of way.

Anyway, back to the point. The most recent comment that stood out to me was on a forum where someone said "Guthrie wants to be Brett Garsed so bad it's not funny". What a clown. I never heard one specific style from Guthrie, I ADORE the fact that he's so versatile and hard to pin down, and to be honest I think I could recognise his playing quite easily. I agree that within time he will develop moore of a unique sound and style, this first CD is indeed his time to find his feet, release all those songs he's been thinking about for years, and we'll start to see the real Guthrie Govan on the second and third albums.

I hate this "GG is just a clone of (insert famous guitarist here)" crap. Those buffoons need to wash their ears out.
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Yngtchie Blacksteen



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dee wrote:
I hate this "GG is just a clone of (insert famous guitarist here)" crap. Those buffoons need to wash their ears out.

Aye. Sure, Guthrie can sound like a whole bunch of different players if he wants to, but his own personal playing is not instantly reminscent of any player I can think of. The comment in the Holdsworth forum about Guthrie being a Vai clone cracked me up, how can anyone say that after having listened to Guthrie's entire album? It's understandable if all you've heard is "Uncle Skunk", but c'mon, the whole album? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Btw, did you get my PM?
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Dee



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I didn't find the PM until you mentioned it. I rarely check my inbox over here, but I just replied. Smile
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