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Improvisor's OS and Rhythmic Illusions
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Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:59 pm    Post subject: Improvisor's OS and Rhythmic Illusions Reply with quote

So I've just ordered IOS and just recieved Rhythmic Illusions. If you are not familiar Rhytmic Illusions is actually a drum book. But my drummer is totally into it, so I thought i'd check it out, b/c my drummer is incredible with the way he bends time so to speak.

I'm working on translating the stuff to guitar, but the basic premise is superimposing other times, or tempos that are just illusions over top of the actual tempo. ( like taking the dotted 16th note and making it the quarter note in the new tempo, while the original tempo is still going on, using simpilar patterns so the audience actually think you've shifted times, but then all of the sudden coming back to the original tempo)

Needless to say it is mind boggling stuff but in about 100 years you'll certainly see some amazing things in my playing Very Happy Seriously though it is quite fascinating. If you'd like to check out more of what it's like check out my drummers page... www.paulstranahan.com I've recently joined his group and had to learn like 30 charts all with constant changing meters and harmony. Very fun group though, I'm still site reading a lot of it, but am playing it all.

Anyways, I'm looking for to the improvisor's os, even with all the mixed reviews it seems good, and I figure a lesson from wayne is going to be more than 25 bucks, so if I get even that much out of it. All is well for me.

Cheers,

Tim
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool. the Rhytmic Illusions book will find its way to my practice room. thanks for the tip. it sounds really interesting. as for wayne's book, i think it's extremely good ... if you're into wayne's general project you'll definitely get it. it's a conceptual approach to improvising that's very hands on at the same time. you don't learn licks, scales or arpeggios from it, no mechanics, no what-to-play-over-that-chord, and it will probaböy take some time to benefit from it. but it's great. wayne is doing something completely different from anybody else around today, and it stretches from his concept of improvising, to arranging, and how to distribute his music. i have a three hour conversation with him taped, that's supposed to become a lenghty article-interview -- but it will have to wait until after christmas.

thanks again for the rythm book tip.

.
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Mirth



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome,

When I lived in NYC I used to go see Wayne frequently, always a great show, and I'm also a huge Kieth carlock fan, as great as Wayne is half the time I didn't even pay attention b/c Carlock is also out of this world.

Yeah I hope it comes soon. And I hope to see that interview soon too, I'm sure it's very interesting.

Cheers,

Tim

PS. The good thing about the illusions book is you can practice it anywhere, even without your guitar.
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sumis



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mirth wrote:
You're welcome,

When I lived in NYC I used to go see Wayne frequently, always a great show, and I'm also a huge Kieth carlock fan, as great as Wayne is half the time I didn't even pay attention b/c Carlock is also out of this world.


+100!

I was a regular Thursdays on 55 Bar this spring. And yes, Keith Carlock is a total monster player. It was extremely inspiring to hear him do his thing up close on a regular basis. Could go on forever 'bout him.

.
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markrobinson



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds very cool. Guthrie talks about this stuff a bit in Creative Guitar 2 in the alternate picking section. Can sound thoroughly brilliant if not a little tricky to get hold of at first.
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Alun



Joined: 19 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Rhythmic Illusions stuff is great. Gavin Harrison has also done some other great books and DVDs..

http://www.drumset.demon.co.uk/

The "..Visions" DVD covers the whole Illusion concept really well if you prefer being able to see what's going on.
Cheers,
Alun
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Mirth



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I got the IOS yesterday. So to tell you what I think, I'll post an email I sent a friend who was curious about it.

So here it is.....


So I received the IOS book today. And I guess I'll give you a little review, so far, of what I think. Let's start from the beginning.

As I went to check the mail today hoping that the book would show up and as i looked in the mailbox, at first I thought it hadn't arrived. But quickly found that there was a package from Wayne himself. As I opened the book, I first noticed how tiny the book was. I'm talking the size of a birthday card, 8x6 book, 80 pages.

As I opened the book I see many, many pages with formulas, in fact, every formula possible from 1 note to 12. Written in a 1b256b77 format. Of course, this seems like a complete waist of money at the time, I could have written this all out myself. And of course I think we're all aware of the possibilities out there, and are quite daunted by them.

This was, however, quickly turned around with a 40 page FAQ section starting with the question, "What is this bullshit?"

I knew from there that first impressions are "bullshit". This book is quite a daunting effort, I just finished reading the faq, and will need to read it a few more times to digest it all. It is basically a book of tonalities. Every tonality.

I will say that this method, if that is what it is, is not for everyone, but I think it may be for me, and is coming at an interesting time in my playing, and musical identity.

What I mean by that is I have always done things a little different when coming to music and guitar. I never had a teacher in the beginning and never really had a traditional learning environment. So i guess I made up my own methods, and never quite liked any mel bay, etc... methods. This is not like those, for sure.

Somethings that make it work for me....

Ear Training.... I decided 2 years ago to go with a different ear training method, a non interval based method. It is all about function. I hear the b2 in the key, or 5th, instead of a tritone. This OS is very similar, everything is by function.

Pedagogy..... I've never been into pattern playing, and this is very anti patterns. The method he suggests forces you to totally abandon all pattern playing. It's all about seeing notes and functions, starting with limiting yourself to 4 frets. And eventually the whole fretboard.

Spontaneous Improv..... The method is all about spontaneous improv, and no licks, but at the same time, you are supposed to listen to recordings of yourself in a limited fashion (4 frets, a few notes). And then finding out what you like, or don't and fix it. So it's about making interesting things out of limited things. His interpretation, is you should always be able to make something sound good. This is something I preach, and attempt to show to all my students, and therefore love the approach.

12 tone method.... before coming to University of Akron . I was working with a composition teacher on a 12 tone method, and I think this OS may be the missing link, and has rejuvenated my desire to continue with my research.


Alright, this was completely long winded, but somewhat thorough. This is a very "do it yourself" method, along the lines of Mick Goodrick. So I don't know if it sounds good to you, but if the above pertain to your playing, I would suggest it. But really it's just another in a long line of books I will never probably get finished, if it's even possible to do such a thing.

Though, if I can even muster the fortitude, tenacity, diligence, obsessiveness? or any other adjective I can think of, to seriously put sometime into this book, I know I will make huge strides, massive.


Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Tim


If the mods feel this post is going over the copyrights or something of the book, feel free to take it off. But I don't think it really gives anything away. Thanks.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must say I was disappointed with IOS. It does little to place itself in order to get the most use from it. I hated the format, coming from a strong tech background I've probably read more tech manuals than I care to admit to.. so I hated the allusion to OS...

I thought Mick Goodrick's book was far more comprehensive and inspiring, IOS seems like a lame chapter Mick decided not to add.

The permutations of the chromatic scale seemed like a poke at Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry and it's millions of chord diagrams... that'd fit with the anti-patterns theme, a rather elaborate joke.

Face it... you can write a program to generate the permutations of the chromatic scale and run it as a web page... which means you've got a pamphlet, that if it wasn't written by Wayne Krantz you wouldn't buy. (IMO)

I think I'll write an improvisers OS combination generator so the next edition of the book can be that little bit lighter, and cheaper and people can use the website to get a combination each time they hit the page.

I'm interested in 12 tone composition and so far I've been recommended Slonimsky's stuff and Reg Brindle, any thoughts?
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sumis



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lets not start this thing again frankus. you've already taken back your initial impression once. Twisted Evil

oh well, here we go again:

i actually do think that you've misunderstood the concept and aim behind waynes approach. the specific formulas listed is a very secondary point (it should be obviuos since the list consists of all possible formulas existing within one octave). if you're looking for specific tonal material to apply to min7 vamps of choice, look elsewhere. i think the book makes this very clear. the layout and structuring of the book serves very specific pedagogic purpusoses, which you'll have to follow to get.

the books aim is to present a certain way of PRACTICING improvisation, real improvisation -- not the linking toghether of idioms. it's NOT a book about jazz either. with wayne's words, the four-fret system is just an approach to make some kind of sense of the mess that is the guitar fingerboard. one important point of the concept is that it is NOT pattern based (this you have to understand), which might seem weird considering the list of formulas, it's NOT based on idioms, but actually based on a kind of ear training, on discovering how certian notes and intervalls sound together with other notes and intervalls in specific situations, and how to get this under your fingers in a non-mechanical way.

a book like sheets of sounds (for example) is great, inspiring, hands-on, and can be put to immediate use. i believe i.os. can work in that way as well, but it's a TOTALLY different thing.

frankus, you're blaiming the pomegranate for not tasting like an apple! stick to the apples bro and be happy Wink Cool

i do think it helps (but not that it's necessary) to have a general understanding of what wayne's general music/artisitc project has been about the last ten years. it's not really possible to compare what he does to what other guitar players out there are doing. his approach to improvisation, band structure, recording, composing, distribution etc are parts of a total concept that is genuinely unique and different ... if you like it, get it, care about it -- that's another story.

the following point is VERY important i beleive: i.os. is basically a way of practicing SOUNDS -- how certain sounds sound. and not specific sounds, belonging to certain genres or whatever, but any possible sound you could stumble on, or that you happen to fancy, within a western 12-tone system.

.

considering slonimsky. here's what wayne has to say about that book (if "that" book, is what you're interested in):


Quote:
Question: How do you apply use of the Slonimsky "Thesaurus of Scales and MelodicPatterns" book to your playing? I understand the science of splitting the octave in different parts and following some sort of twelve tone approach to permeating the lines, but beyond that. There are no key signatures, bar lines, or rhythmns. Did you use it for your reading? But everything is in "C" and the lines come across as finger patterns. I know you spent time shedding this book. How did you apply it in terms of your playing and composing? Other than grabbing some cool licks, I don't know what to do with it.

Wayne: Initially I used the book just to grab a few cool licks, too: I went through the first few chapters and figured out what chords those lines would work over, picked a few I really liked and then tried to use them in solos. The other thing I did initially was to use it as a technical exercise book - tried to play them as fast and clean as I could with the metronome. Both of those got pretty boring, pretty quick... The best things I ended up getting from the book (so far) are:
1. The concept you mention of breaking up the octave into symmetrical intervals (tritone, maj 3rd, min. 3rd, whole step, half step) and then playing different kinds of intervallic approaches to those intervals, is pretty interesting. It's something that can be done improvisationally, using rhythm to break things up (a departure from the book), to get some pretty different, out sounds that still have some symmetrical/intervallic integrity that makes sense to the ear. Sort of. It's like using constant structure; it doesn't have to be explainable harmonically, but it works because of the the symmetry. And it doesn't have to be a lick; you can spontaneously generate lines using this concept, especially if you allow for some rhythic variation, ie, it doesn't have to be constant 16th notes. Just the idea of approach notes other than the common bebop ones is pretty good, by itself.
2. In analyzing the pentatonic scales in the book (I was trying to figure out what they were and how to remember them all) I realized that every one of them is a common 7th chord with one additional note from the chromatic scale. Never knew that before. It made it much easier to remember them and use them. Plus it led me to making up my own pentatonic scales, even while improvising, just by thinking of a 4-note chord and adding a chromatic note to it. Good stuff.
3. Those lines are different from what I would normally play, and it's just good to get your hands going in different directions sometimes. This is something that can be accomplished by reading anything new, really - it can expand the possibilities of treading on some new ground just by osmosis, without even playing the licks specifically. Basically these concepts are all available improvisationally, which makes them more fun for me and a lot more applicable to my playing. That said, I can't say the book has ended up being a bible for me. It's a logical, well-organized, important book that gave me some good ideas.
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frankus



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumis wrote:
lets not start this thing again frankus. you've already taken back your initial impression once. Twisted Evil


Yup, I might retract this view too, but the fact is my opinion changes meaning I keep turning it over and over... like an oyster and a grain of sand. I think it means that I'm not satisfied with the book and I've yet to have these doubts reconciled, but I respect other peoples opinions and the author enough to NOT simply discount this book.

sumis wrote:
oh well, here we go again:


I think it fair to point out at this stage, I feel your responses are based on misunderstanding or bifurcation .. or an attempt to redress the criticism with a strong image of the book.. all of which I percieve as traits of an emotional investment made by you. I'm questioning your motivation, is all.

sumis wrote:

i actually do think that you've misunderstood the concept and aim behind waynes approach. the specific formulas listed is a very secondary point (it should be obviuos since the list consists of all possible formulas existing within one octave).


No, I think I said it was an elaborate joke.

frankus wrote:
a rather elaborate joke.


Yup, I did. Your supposed to leaf through page one and two pick up the pattern and flick through the rest of the pages to see when the boring stuff ends (as you do with all the books on music you've ever bought) with expanding disbelief until you find real text and the first line has read your mind.. it was the best bit of the book Wink

If you want to pick combinations and permutations of them, then a book is a poor format for it, but without these pages there's no need for a book

sumis wrote:
if you're looking for specific tonal material to apply to min7 vamps of choice, look elsewhere. i think the book makes this very clear. the layout and structuring of the book serves very specific pedagogic purpusoses, which you'll have to follow to get.


I don't think I mentioned a preference to vamping over chords although the book does prescribe that but omits the label associated with the chord spelling.

I'm confused by the use of the term pedagogic.. pertaining to a pedagogue, my take on the word is not positive as it implies that authority needs to be manifest in order to teach.

sumis wrote:
the books aim is to present a certain way of PRACTICING improvisation, real improvisation -- not the linking toghether of idioms. it's NOT a book about jazz either.


Yes, it's not: "a tree", "a grizzly bear" or "a tarton musk ox skateboarding to the dentists on any day of the week" either ... I felt it important to add these extra qualifications.. in case at some future juncture, these slightly less than salient, facts might be mentioned and infirred by me as a way of saying 'I had not grasped the usefulness of the book' .. of course if it is a tarton musk ox skateboarding to the dentists .. I will have to live with the shame Wink

sumis wrote:
with wayne's words, the four-fret system is just an approach to make some kind of sense of the mess that is the guitar fingerboard.


Yup, I think I read a Barney Kessel book which indicated something similar but I also respect the views of Mick Goodrick, Ted Greene, Bill Edwards, Alan De Mause amongst others who think there's a pretty good reason for the fretboard being the way it is.. patterns, more subtle than the keyboard but there none the less... and for a reason.

4 frets is one road ... basically which ever sticks in your mind and you can plow through the method for you.. I hope you are not mistaking my criticism of the book as a criticism of the method you seem to like.

sumis wrote:
one important point of the concept is that it is NOT pattern based (this you have to understand),


This, I did already understand. Wink I understood it and questioned it.. I'm allowed to do that.

sumis wrote:
which might seem weird considering the list of formulas, it's NOT based on idioms, but actually based on a kind of ear training, on discovering how certian notes and intervalls sound together with other notes and intervalls in specific situations, and how to get this under your fingers in a non-mechanical way.


Yep, I did read the book several times, it did seem to say that after a fashion, mostly an impression reinforced over many pages, not a writing style I like but I can appreciate it in a creative individual Emily Remler and Joe Pass's hotlicks videos indicated vagueness of means of communicating the things they just did. I also discovered it's not Vanilla or Chocolate flavoured...

sumis wrote:
a book like sheets of sounds (for example) is great, inspiring, hands-on, and can be put to immediate use. i believe i.os. can work in that way as well, but it's a TOTALLY different thing.


yeeeees... it's totally different .. how? There doesn't appear ot be any element that has not been put in some other book first and in my opinon more eloquently. This doesn't lessen my appreciation of the man or his music, but the book didn't offer new or insightful material.. if I examine it closely.

sumis wrote:
frankus, you're blaiming the pomegranate for not tasting like an apple! stick to the apples bro and be happy Wink Cool


And that's the crux of the biscuit. At this point I felt a metaphysical "pat on the head" and for that you got this extended response; you pissed me off Laughing..

a) You appear to have underestimated me as a basis of your assumptions.
b) In recognising this I had to acknowledge I care what people think of me (which as a rule I do not; but I respect the members of this community and perhaps wish to feel something more than the school janitor sat amongst the school masters).
b part2) I also had to assess whether this insecurity was distorting my perception.
c) I had to reexamine my response to see if it had provoked a measured response or unmeasured response.
d) To redress this situation I had to precisely indicate what my thoughts were and where they lie on a particular subject (which means extracting things that are constantly in a state of flux and pretending they are fixed in that space and time to ensure clarity and semantic accuracy.. rather than rough sketches and impressions) - this you might want to compare ironically to the mind-set of an improviser.
e) Finally, and perhaps trebly so, I'm pissed off since I have to make an effort where as the fatuous comment that provoked me appears to display a lack of effort to consider my opinions (further reinforced by citing phantom arguments in the response.. wtf?)
f) The I had to wince at my long winded response and weigh up carefully whether the turgid pompousity of the response and the social stigma attached to being an indignant web-pedant was worth it to it to convey the fruitlessness of reading a large body of text to find nothing new or inspiring for you money or your time.

So back to the text in question.

sumis wrote:
i do think it helps (but not that it's necessary) to have a general understanding of what wayne's general music/artisitc project has been about the last ten years.


Right, so my appreciation of his book is marred by my (supposed) ignorance of his music... or incomplete knowledge of his works ... or an article he wrote... So does that mean the book doesn't stand up as an individual artifact (perhaps outside of a cult of personality)?

sumis wrote:
it's not really possible to compare what he does to what other guitar players out there are doing. his approach to improvisation, band structure, recording, composing, distribution etc are parts of a total concept that is genuinely unique and different ... if you like it, get it, care about it -- that's another story.


Look here Brother... who you jiving with that cosmic debris? It looks like a razor and a can of foaming goo... you're presenting some sort of mystical holism and could seem a zealot in some lights because of it..

sumis wrote:
the following point is VERY important i beleive: i.os. is basically a way of practicing SOUNDS. and not specific sounds, belonging to certain genres or whatever, but any possible sound you could stumble on, or that you happen to fancy, within a western 12-tone system.


It's a way of practicing TONES.. there's little reference to rhythm or dynamism, despite Wayne displaying a lot talent in that field..

If you want any meat for another discussion then here is the phrase I would like considered, it's pared down and requires no assumptions of my knowledge of anything:

Given the talent and diversity of the guy, how can it not be disappointing to find the message "be your own guru" muttered amongst a few truisms. Does the embelishment around this message warrant a $25 book? The content is on a par with what I'd expect to find on a wikipedia page.
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gotta love it!

it's been a while since we had a really fun thread. that debut album by that bearded guitar playing guy probably has something to do with that.

frankus. you're my man! this is one of the best posts ever. all thanks to wayne and his great book ;-D

a bit stingy today though, are we? or are we, as has happened before, a bit insusceptible to each others modes of irony?

with that said:

frankus wrote:
a) You appear to have underestimated me as a basis of your assumptions.
b) In recognising this I had to acknowledge I care what people think of me (which as a rule I do not; but I respect the members of this community and perhaps wish to feel something more than the school janitor sat amongst the school masters).
b part2) I also had to assess whether this insecurity was distorting my perception.
c) I had to reexamine my response to see if it had provoked a measured response or unmeasured response.
d) To redress this situation I had to precisely indicate what my thoughts were and where they lie on a particular subject (which means extracting things that are constantly in a state of flux and pretending they are fixed in that space and time to ensure clarity and semantic accuracy.. rather than rough sketches and impressions) - this you might want to compare ironically to the mind-set of an improviser.
e) Finally, and perhaps trebly so, I'm pissed off since I have to make an effort where as the fatuous comment that provoked me appears to display a lack of effort to consider my opinions (further reinforced by citing phantom arguments in the response.. wtf?)
f) The I had to wince at my long winded response and weigh up carefully whether the turgid pompousity of the response and the social stigma attached to being an indignant web-pedant was worth it to it to convey the fruitlessness of reading a large body of text to find nothing new or inspiring for you money or your time.


well, concerning "e)", you're kind of right. but the problem has more to do with you underestimating my considering of your opinions. i don't think you're stupid, just that your description of i.os. isn't meritorious. it's true though that i deliberately remold some of your assertions -- out of "pedagogic" reasons, it just makes it more fun that way ;-D it might not be fair, but i thought that the rhetorical nature of my post was kind of obvious.

frankus wrote:

sumis wrote:
i do think it helps (but not that it's necessary) to have a general understanding of what wayne's general music/artisitc project has been about the last ten years.


Right, so my appreciation of his book is marred by my (supposed) ignorance of his music... or incomplete knowledge of his works ... or an article he wrote... So does that mean the book doesn't stand up as an individual artifact (perhaps outside of a cult of personality)?


i do ask you to read the first clause of my sentence (inculding the parenthesis) again. i could easily have left this paragraph out, though. doesn't change anything. but your reading of it is not accurate.

frankus wrote:

sumis wrote:
it's not really possible to compare what he does to what other guitar players out there are doing. his approach to improvisation, band structure, recording, composing, distribution etc are parts of a total concept that is genuinely unique and different ... if you like it, get it, care about it -- that's another story.


Look here Brother... who you jiving with that cosmic debris? It looks like a razor and a can of foaming goo... you're presenting some sort of mystical holism and could seem a zealot in some lights because of it..


well, i could elaborate on this if you wanted me to. i just thought this wasn't the place, and that my abbreviated description of wayne's practice was fairly uncontroversial. i don't find any of the buzz words in my (i have to agree, fairly cursory) description "mystical". wayne HAS a certian way of doing things, and it shows on many different levels of what he's doing. simple as that. conceptual, yes, sometimes. practical, most of the time. mystical, well only a pathological materialist would say that.

frankus wrote:

sumis wrote:
the following point is VERY important i beleive: i.os. is basically a way of practicing SOUNDS. and not specific sounds, belonging to certain genres or whatever, but any possible sound you could stumble on, or that you happen to fancy, within a western 12-tone system.


It's a way of practicing TONES.. there's little reference to rhythm or dynamism, despite Wayne displaying a lot talent in that field..


hmm, can't see what you're implying. as i see it, it's a way of practicing the SOUND of certain tonalities in certain situations (like a C7 tonality over G minor, for a simple but typical example), and getting this under your fingers in a way that's primarliy based on ear, not on patterns. it has to do with patterns, off course, but it's a way of practicing yourself out of patterns and developing your ear i'd say. you don't need to read the book to benefit from this kind of practicing, or to develop your own excercises to work on this, but the book could maybe, eventually, if you're lucky, in the right mood, or if you want it to, help you with it.

frankus wrote:

If you want any meat for another discussion then here is the phrase I would like considered, it's pared down and requires no assumptions of my knowledge of anything:

Given the talent and diversity of the guy, how can it not be disappointing to find the message "be your own guru" muttered amongst a few truisms. Does the embelishment around this message warrant a $25 book? The content is on a par with what I'd expect to find on a wikipedia page.


i respect your opinion. very much so, otherwise i wouldn't have responded to your rants in the first place. they are actually pretty funny. but the amusing aspect aside, the description of the book as a mumbo jumbo collection of truisms is pretty unfair, and to say it's an "embelishment around" "be your own guru" is just false. it think you know that to. and no, i don't think you're stupid. just a bit impatient when it comes to guitar instruction books Wink

am i biased? yes, obviously. (didn't guthrie say "a bit partial" about our dear ed?) has the fact that i've invested a lot of time and effort to study wk anything to do with my opinions? sure. has the fact that i've had the opportunity to discuss these questions with him anything to do with my eager defense of his book. probably.

i think a lot of your critique is valid. but still, you're not getting it. it has nothing to do with metaphysical flummery. the book presents a very hands on approach to practicing improvisation, but a pretty original one, that deliberately strays away from the way this kind of instruction material is normally presented, structured or laid out. and this is not a rhetorical or aesthetic decision. i.os. wants to be nothing like the book you're looking for, and i guess that's probably one of its greatest merits.
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frankus



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah but... you're wrong Cool Laughing

Quote:
i respect your opinion. very much so, otherwise i wouldn't have responded to your rants in the first place.


Laughing .. I feel loved Wink or at least like a humoured wife.

I wrote this in the mean time: it writes most of IOS for you:

Code:
my @n=(undef,qw( b2 2 b3 3 4 b5 5 b6 6 b7 7));
for my $s(1..2047)
{
    @f=reverse((split '',(unpack("B32",pack("N",$s))))[21..32]);
    @f=grep{$_}(map{$f[$_]?$n[$_]:0}(0..$#f));
    print "1 " . join(' ', @f ) . "\n";
}


There, now you made me use Perl in an argument about Music.
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sumis



Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 570
Location: gothenburg, sweden

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="frankus"]
I wrote this in the mean time: it writes most of IOS for you:

Code:
my @n=(undef,qw( b2 2 b3 3 4 b5 5 b6 6 b7 7));
for my $s(1..2047)
{
    @f=reverse((split '',(unpack("B32",pack("N",$s))))[21..32]);
    @f=grep{$_}(map{$f[$_]?$n[$_]:0}(0..$#f));
    print "1 " . join(' ', @f ) . "\n";
}


Laughing yes, it actually does. or, rather, it would write out most of the characters printed in i.os., since so much of its concrete linguistic or semiotic material consist of representations of all the possible formulas. what the book actually says is another story, but i look forward to the perl version of that Wink but then again, that's a question of interpretation.

i'm so happy my employer has no idea of what i'm doing in my office during working hours ...

.
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Mirth



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow some interesting thoughts on both side, but since this is a forum I may as well give my opinion. Smile

I think the formulas were only put in the book for convenience. Meaning the meat of the book, and the important parts are in the writing. I believe, or like to believe, Wayne is a aware that anyone could have come up with formulas, but the not everyone is aware of the system implied.

I also think if you(meaning anyone) took a lesson with Wayne it would probably be similar to the FAQ section of the book. So in a grand way 25 bucks is a deal. I think the concepts though similar to Goodrick's or Jon Damian's book ideas, it is still different. And for me it is coming at a time where it is the time of thing needed to move on.

Although not directly connected to rhythm, it is indeed intended to be about it. As long as you do what is asked, by recording yourself and analyzing what you're doing. This may seem like a simple response but it is, to me, what matters most in rhythm.

Rhythm is not about copying what others are doing, it's about make the notes jump off the page or out of your brain in an effective way. The only way to truly grasp it, is not to learn a million beats, but to develop your sense of what it should be like. And when I listen to wayne that is what I hear. He is not regurgitating old warn out rhythms, though some may pop up, he is going with the flow in the music, because he has taken the time to analyze solid rhythm, timing, and expression, in his own playing.

This goes for phrasing as well. How do you make a limited number of notes sound interesting. You can, and there seems to be no one better than Wayne at milking notes/tonalities common or not into amazingly interesting ideas.

I think what Wayne gives us here is how he did, or wishes he had always done it. Will this book make you sound like Krantz, probably not, but going through the way he suggests, I believe, will leave you with incredible freedom in your playing.

I've never been one for pattern playing, or licks, or common chord shapes, etc... though I use some and feel chained down by them. But that doesn't mean there haven't been amazing musicians that have used them. If you like having the structure of shapes and patterns, and other vices, or you feel those are the path to total freedom, I say go with it. For me, I like the idea of going for freedom from the beginning, though I know it's a very long path.

You heard it hear folks, 10 years, I'll freaking blow you away. Very Happy Well maybe.

Cheers,

Tim

(many of the views above are certainly based on my opinion, but I just didn't want to keep interrupting the flow with comments like, in my opinion.)
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cheeseshredder



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those interested I found an example here:

http://www.drumset.demon.co.uk/rhythmicillusionexamples.htm
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