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"King Tone" theories and the retro revolution
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Blind Melon Chitlin



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
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Location: Austin Texas, Earth!

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject: "King Tone" theories and the retro revolution Reply with quote

I've often wondered, "if Stevie had lived through the ninties, what gear would he have used?"

I'm reasonably certain that he would have retired Number One and replaced it with another vintage strat with similar tone and feel. And I think he would have searched high and low until he found a suitable replacement. Fender built twelve proto-types of the SRV signiture guitar, but I've yet to see even one photograph of him holding one. The closest he ever got was swapping the neck off of one of the new guitars and putting it on Number One after Number One's headstock broke off on the final tour. So I think that, at least for the next couple of years, he would have kept playing vintage strats. After a while he would have retired his vintage strats in favor of custom shop strats, though I have a feeling that he would have replaced the stock pickups with Lindy Fralins or Van Zant's or even a set of stock vintage strat pickups.

The 1990s saw an explosion of botique amp builders such as Matchless, Kendrick, Trainwreck, Victoria, Holland, THD, Groove Tubes, Naylor, and the Fender Custom Shop. What do you want to bet that Stevie would have been one of the first guys to play a Vibro King? Given the problems that the early ones had, he probably would have stopped using them for a while and tried the other stuff that was available, but I think he would have loved Vibro Kings. There's also a high probability that he would have had Cesar Diaz build him a few blackface style amps.

He probably would have loved Fulltone pedals, the Klon Centaur Overdrive, the Bixonic Expandora, and all the killer stomp boxes there were to choose from by the mid '90s. It seems logical that he would have stopped using Tube Screamers given how flimsy the foot switches are and how often they break.

Eventually I think he would have retired all his vintage gear and replaced it with 100% custom made guitars, amps and pedals. It got to a point in the '90s where if you could afford it you could have a totally custom made rig, all to your specs. Stevie would have been like a kid in a candy store.

Any thoughts? Or do I just have too much free time?
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TTrahan



Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guitar: I think he would have kept using all of his vintage strats, except # 1. Scotch would soon become his favorite, but he would often play an Olympic White Custom Shop Jimi Hendrix strat that Fender made for him Very Happy

Pickups: Van Zandt was developing pickups w/ SRV before he died, so I figure he would've used these.

Amps: He would still use all of his amps. Vibroverbs, Marshalls, Dumbles, but would've added some of the boutique amps for use in the studio. The boutique amps just lacked to overall output to match what he was used to with the 150w SSS and the 100w and 200w Marshalls. We would soon hear a Victoria Bassman all over the next album.

At smaller festivals he would use a Matchless Clubman (recommended by brother Jimmie and Robert Cray) for his Marshall type tones and stick with the Fenders for the sparkly clean.

Pedals: He would've stayed away from the Klon, it's too nasally for use as an overdrive (and people would start to tell him that his tone was getting nasally, so he would've definitely not used the Klon), and he got most of his OD from the amps anyways. He would continue to use Diaz's square face for his fuzz sounds, and maybe contact Mike Fuller about endorsing the Clyde Wah, Deja Vibe or Octafuzz. He would use the Fulldrive at festivals where he needed to get some extra juice. He would've most likely been hooked up with Analogman Mike, referred by Kenny Wayne, who's tone would start to sound better and better as the years progressed. Analogman would develop the true bypass mod for the tubescreamers and they would be back in regular rotation.

Later...the tubescreamers would still be used, but not as much. But as the 90s progress he would see that he has it all wrong, and that he needed to start using the MJM Blues Devil!! Wink

Cool thread, I could think of 10 different ways this story could go.
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Soul_Taker



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
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Location: Mar del Plata Argentina

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TTrahan wrote:
Guitar: I think he would have kept using all of his vintage strats, except # 1. Scotch would soon become his favorite, but he would often play an Olympic White Custom Shop Jimi Hendrix strat that Fender made for him Very Happy


Here's info for the Hendrix prototype, and how Stevie found it:

http://www.stratcollector.com/newsdesk/archives/000183.html

Please, excuse my bad English...

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Blind Melon Chitlin



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy, there's a small problem with your version: If SRV was still alive we'd all be saying Kenny Wayne who? Confused Wasn't he that crazy-ass pecker wood that burned down that trailer park and killed all them people? Oh no, my bad. Different guy. How come all them whack jobs that are always on the news killin' folks got three names? After a while they all sound the same, ya know? Laughing Laughing

I still think Stevie would have loved the Vibro King.
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Vaughanabe13



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you guys kidding me? Stevie would never replace number one unless it was absolutely beaten into submission and no longer repairable. Don't forget that throughout his career that guitar had countless refrets, bridge adjustments, part changes (gold parts), even a new neck put on...Stevie was NOT about to give up on Number One. It's not a matter of how old or outdated his gear would be, it's a question of his own personal connection with it. He wouldn't see that guitar go for any reason, IMO.

As for amps, I'm sure he would keep expanding his collection but for most gigs my bet is he would stay with the Marshall's and Fender's. None of this new-age digital crap.

Pedals: He'll definately stay the same. Stevie was primarily a blues player, and most blues players don't rely on pedals much at all. He had a good collection of OD's, Wah's, etc. but really only the basic stuff to get the tones he wanted. Why in the hell would he want to ditch his vintage tube screamers???? Those things are still sought after today! Look on ebay. I'm sure there is one being sold right now for over $300-400. The new pedals can't hold a CANDLE to the awesomeness of the vintage equipment.
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UncleSalty



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vaughanabe13 wrote:
Are you guys kidding me? Stevie would never replace number one unless it was absolutely beaten into submission and no longer repairable. Don't forget that throughout his career that guitar had countless refrets, bridge adjustments, part changes (gold parts), even a new neck put on...Stevie was NOT about to give up on Number One. It's not a matter of how old or outdated his gear would be, it's a question of his own personal connection with it. He wouldn't see that guitar go for any reason, IMO.

I know where you're coming from, but I think it'd be a bit like Clapton & Blackie - there'd be a point where the convenience of a custom shop Strat built to Stevie's exact specifications that didn't break down and could be replaced with another one would outweigh the inconvenience of keeping Number One in good enough condition to take out on the road. I think it would have been all over his studio albums, though.
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TTrahan



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vaughanabe - If SRV was so attached to his VINTAGE tubescreamers, why on earth would he use TS10s, he used every tubescreamer he could get his hands on. Plus, the 808s would'nt be so SOUGHT AFTER if he hadn't of passed. I mean shit, you can buy a clone for $150 with truebypass that sounds exactly like an 808. The vintage one's would be getting shit canned if he was still alive, because there would be no "I can get SRV tone with my vintage 808!". The new pedals don't hold a candle to the vintage equipment?? Have you played any of the new pedals out there? Not from Boss, but from MJM, Barber, Landgraff, Menatone, etc?
The best pedals EVER are out right now. I'm sick of hearing the vintage bullshit.

I've even seen shows where he used an EH Hot Tubes. He wasn't that attached to them, c'mon. Crowther Audio Hotcake was in the rotation for a little while as well, not long, but he was experimenting.

Anyways - the whole story was just for fun, I don't know if he would've retired number one, but later in his career he was using scotch more, so who knows? I have no idea what he would've done, and neither do you, that's why I told a FUN story, totally fictional (obviously), it was fun to make up some stuff.

Countless refrets = not many fret jobs left. That guitar was probably going to be retired, or he would've just been playing with it because people identified that guitar as being his Number One, that's my opinion.

I agree on the no new age digital crap. I think he would've dabbled in the boutique market though.
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TTrahan



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind Melon Chitlin wrote:
Troy, there's a small problem with your version: If SRV was still alive we'd all be saying Kenny Wayne who? Confused Wasn't he that crazy-ass pecker wood that burned down that trailer park and killed all them people? Oh no, my bad. Different guy. How come all them whack jobs that are always on the news killin' folks got three names? After a while they all sound the same, ya know? Laughing Laughing



That's so true, I didn't even think of that!!!

LMAO! Very Happy
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Blind Melon Chitlin



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UncleSalty wrote:
Vaughanabe13 wrote:
Are you guys kidding me? Stevie would never replace number one unless it was absolutely beaten into submission and no longer repairable. Don't forget that throughout his career that guitar had countless refrets, bridge adjustments, part changes (gold parts), even a new neck put on...Stevie was NOT about to give up on Number One. It's not a matter of how old or outdated his gear would be, it's a question of his own personal connection with it. He wouldn't see that guitar go for any reason, IMO.

I know where you're coming from, but I think it'd be a bit like Clapton & Blackie - there'd be a point where the convenience of a custom shop Strat built to Stevie's exact specifications that didn't break down and could be replaced with another one would outweigh the inconvenience of keeping Number One in good enough condition to take out on the road. I think it would have been all over his studio albums, though.


That's what I was getting at. Number One's original neck had been replaced because it would not take frets any longer. One of the original pickups had stopped working too. Jimmie Vaughan doesn't play his old white strat anymore. Clapton stopped using his vintage strats in the '80s and eventually auctioned them off. These guys can afford to play whatever they want, but they choose to tour with new guitars and amps instead of the vintage stuff. Almost no one tours with vintage gear anymore except Eric Johnson and a few other guys. After 15+ years of constant use and abuse guitars wear out. Fender had been working with Stevie, for about two years, on a proposed signature model stratocaster and they made him a total of a dozen guitars, but I don't think he liked them. Think about that; a dozen? How many times does it take to get it right? I think he played them and went "Yeah it's okay, but to be honest I'm not crazy about it." I think Stevie would have kept playing Number One with a new neck on it until he found another old strat that he liked or the Fender Custom Shop built him a guitar that he liked. If there were actually any photographs of Stevie playing one of the prototypes on stage, it stands to reason that the advertising people and Fender Musical Instruments would be using it as part of an ad campaign or at least print it in the Frontline catalog.
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Vaughanabe13



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Blind Melon Chitlin"]
Almost no one tours with vintage gear anymore except Eric Johnson and a few other guys.

Are you serious? Just about everyone I listen to plays vintage strats and blackface Fenders....Chris Duarte, Kenny Wayne Shepherd, etc. Just because the gear is old doesn't mean it isn't GOOD! And yes, vintage gear is BETTER than this new stuff. I'm sure Stevie would have experimented with new pedals but I doubt he would replace his old ones.

Also, for the record, Stevie used a vintage TS-808 and a TS-9, modded to TS-808 specs. Rarely if ever did he use a TS-10 (maybe for experimentation, but that's about it). I'm sorry, but I've played all of the TS clones and reissues and NONE can even compare to the original.
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Blind Melon Chitlin



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TTrahan wrote:
Vaughanabe - If SRV was so attached to his VINTAGE tubescreamers, why on earth would he use TS10s, he used every tubescreamer he could get his hands on. Plus, the 808s would'nt be so SOUGHT AFTER if he hadn't of passed. I mean shit, you can buy a clone for $150 with truebypass that sounds exactly like an 808. The vintage one's would be getting shit canned if he was still alive, because there would be no "I can get SRV tone with my vintage 808!". The new pedals don't hold a candle to the vintage equipment?? Have you played any of the new pedals out there? Not from Boss, but from MJM, Barber, Landgraff, Menatone, etc?
The best pedals EVER are out right now. I'm sick of hearing the vintage bullshit.

I've even seen shows where he used an EH Hot Tubes. He wasn't that attached to them, c'mon. Crowther Audio Hotcake was in the rotation for a little while as well, not long, but he was experimenting.



I had an original TS-808 and a TS-10. Some of you might not want to hear this....but it's the truth: the only audible difference between the TS-808 and the TS-10 was fairly slight. The TS-10 was a bit brighter and a tad more compressed but that was it. They were actually very close. They sounded different enough to tell the two apart in an A/B test, but if you had to substitute one for the other I have serious doubts that most people would notice a difference on stage.

A few years ago I had to drive to Houston to do a gig, and I forgot the bag containing my cables and stomp box back in Austin, but I didn't realize it until I was already in Houston unloading my gear. I got on the phone with a guy I knew who lived near by and asked him if I could borrow a pedal or two to get me through my gig that night.

"Sure," he said. "What do you need?"

"Well I normally use a Fulldrive 2."

"Don't have one of those but I've got a couple vintage Tube Screamers, an original Fuzz Face, a Chandler Tube Driver and a few other things."

"Two Tube Screamers would be great," I said.

So I did the gig with an original TS-808 and an original TS-9. They sounded okay but man did I miss my Fulldrive that night. I'm not one of those guys that copps an attitude like my shit is better than everyone elses, but to my surprise I really didn't like the vintage tube screamers as much as the Fulldrive. There's just better sounding stuff out there and that's a good example IMHO. People need to get that Tube Screamer=Stevie Ray equasion out of their heads. He used them because they were one of the best sounding boxes availabe at the time. He used the best sounding gear he could find and when he'd find something better he wasn't affraid to use it.

The word vintage can be defined as: something which cannot be reproduced. With respect to tube amplifiers and solid body electric guitars, the word vintage does not apply. Arch tops, acoustics violins etc. are another story because their tonal characteristics change over time, and that's not something that can be reproduced or copied. Tube amps and solid body guitars, on the other hand, are another story. With respect to tube amps, the only thing that's changed is the overall quality of tubes that are available. But I suspect that a fair amount of that is nothing but hype. New Old Stock American made tubes might last longer than garden variety Russian tubes, but everybody who uses Sovteks and whatever in their amps seems to be making do just fine.

A lot of propaganda gets circulated, which was only ever spawned in the first place, to get people to pay more money than they should in persuit of 'that tone'. The whole concept of 'Texas Tone' was invented by editors at guitar magazines and the people who write advertizing copy for boutique amp companies like Kendrick. Believe me, I live in Texas and no one ever says "I got that Texas Tone!" Tone is subjective, but ultimately there's only two kinds: good tone and shitty tone. Wink
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UncleSalty



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a TS10 for $A50 at a pawn shop in Australia, when SRV was still alive. It was a great pedal. I got it because I'd heard that Stevie Ray & Eric Johnson used Tube Screamers. I had no idea there were different models. At the time I was using a Strat with Lace Sensors through a homemade solidstate amp - my fossil wouldn't make a tube amp. It added a nice warmth to the tone. These days I use a reissue TS9 DX, which I really like, although it took me a while to find the right settings to get the tone I want. The only big difference that I've really noticed between it and the TS 10, is that it looks a damn sight better on my pedalboard - the mid(?)80s styling of the TS10 is pretty crap. Vintage amps and vintage guitars make some degree of sense to me, but the same circuit whether it was made last month or 20 years ago, will be exactly that - the same thing.
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TTrahan



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Vaughanabe13"]
Blind Melon Chitlin wrote:

Almost no one tours with vintage gear anymore except Eric Johnson and a few other guys.

Are you serious? Just about everyone I listen to plays vintage strats and blackface Fenders....Chris Duarte, Kenny Wayne Shepherd, etc. Just because the gear is old doesn't mean it isn't GOOD! And yes, vintage gear is BETTER than this new stuff. I'm sure Stevie would have experimented with new pedals but I doubt he would replace his old ones.

Also, for the record, Stevie used a vintage TS-808 and a TS-9, modded to TS-808 specs. Rarely if ever did he use a TS-10 (maybe for experimentation, but that's about it). I'm sorry, but I've played all of the TS clones and reissues and NONE can even compare to the original.


Just about everyone you listen to includes 2 people?! LOL.

I know Tommy Castro uses a vintage strat (60s ish) and a BF Super Reverb. I'm going to see him on Thursday!

John Mayer (who I don't like BTW!) has GREAT TONE through a Two Rock Custom Reverb Signature and a 90s SRV Strat. None of that is vintage.

KWS uses vintage strats, and RELIC Strats, which aren't vintage.

Hmm, KWS is touring with a Fuchs ODS100 right now, is that vintage? Nope. He's also touring with Marshalls, those aren't BF Fenders if I'm not mistaken. Chris Duarte's pedal board is full of boss pedals, hmmm, how vintage.

I've never heard of SRV using a modded TS9. The TS9 was original when it came out back then, it has since been reissued. That would be cool if he did use the modded TS9s though, where did you read that? BTW, I have atleast 2 shows where he uses the TS10, I know that doesn't make it a regular in the rotation, but I figured I'd share that with ya.

You've really played all of the clones? Man, I must be hearing something different. Have you played an original 808? Do you own one? I don't believe the vintage hype thing, especially coming from someone who hypes the BF Fenders, but owns a Peavey Classic 50. I'm not meaning that in a harsh way, btw, it's just like me saying "I love tubescreamers and I think the MJM Blues Devil is the best 808 clone on the market today, but I don't own one". Same goes with the TS808, do you have one? I have played many BF Fenders and own a clone, and while there good, there not THAT much better than what's out there today, including the Peavey Classic 50.

I do agree that vintage equipment is still great, but its not superior to the good new stuff out there. I've played a few vintage Strats, they played like hell, small frets, tiny neck, etc. I have only played one vintage strat that I loved, and it was the 2nd best guitar I've ever played, next to my NEW warmoth Strat.

The vintage amps are awesome if kept running good, but so are the new boutique amps. I don't like the reissues, but most of the new boutique amps are sweet.
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Blind Melon Chitlin



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, now, boys! No more fighting or you'll get no milk and cookies! Razz

I didn't start this thread so poeple could argue their own biased opinions. I started it for speculation, nothing more. Not that there's anything wrong with a difference of opinion, but jeez! Y'all are beginning to remind me of Archie Bunker and Fred Sanford. (Okay bad example) Y'all are beginning to remind me of Bill O'Reilly and Chris Mathews. Rolling Eyes Lighten up fellas...and just except the fact that you're wrong and I'm right. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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TTrahan



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind Melon, I hear you.

We posted our little stories, which were all in fun.

I was just upset at Vaughnabe's "Are you guys kidding me?" and "Are you serious" intros. Sort of shooting down my (our) opinions when they were strictly speculations, for fun.

Vaughanabe, don't take any of that shit the wrong way, it would be different if we were face to face or on the phone where you could hear my tone. I'm not trying to be a meany head Wink
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