That was probably during the "rack" days, so I'd guess a Boogie preamp and 290 power amp, though for awhile I was using a Lee Jackson preamp. All I know is that there were no real amps involved, which is a shame because they sound so much better. When I was 18 I had a plexi Marshall - when it comes to gear, I wish the 80's never happened.
I'd forgotten which album that song is on - if it's Reality check, it was the Lee Jackson preamp, and I borrowed Allan's "Harness" for that record because I did a lot of the tracks at home. That record was our first attempt at digital recording, using ADATs. The Boogie 290 went into the Harness, and the output of the Harness went to a 30 watt Carvin power amp, so the cabinet was very soft - if the dogs started barking the take was ruined.
Some funny stories about that recording - TJ Helmerich was busy so he couldn't engineer this time, so we recorded at Ocean Way, a very famous studio in LA. TJ would spend countless hours making Covington's drums sound good - this engineer pretty much left them as they really sound. Comedy ensued. Alan Sides is a famous engineer who I think was the owner of the studio at the time. He wanted to put an AKG C414 on my cabinet - I hate that mic so I asked him "if it's OK with you, can we use a Shure 57?" He looked at me and walked out of the room - we never saw him again. What an ass clown! The 2nd engineer ended up recording the album.
We were in the same room - working on it at home doesn't mean solos and other things were replaced. A big part of making a this type of record is not ever erasing anything involving interplay. All rhythmic material has to be kept exactly as it went down in the basic tracks - things which can be changed are re-playing something for better tone, fixing mistakes if they're really obvious, and punching in new phrases - but only if they're the same exact rhythm as the original. If it's a track where the bass and drums just groove through a whole solo like a pop/ rock rhythm section would, you could overdub a completely different solo and no one would know the difference, but in Tribal Tech that almost never happened.
Jazz musicians all have their own ways of dealing with the studio. On one side there's playing a live set and it's finished. On the other side there's massive production and arranging, which usually results in a sterile sounding record. However, there's a lot of gray in between, and experienced musicians know how to produce an album, make it sound the best it can, while preserving the interplay which happened when the band played in the studio together.
Joined: 14 Feb 2017 Posts: 133 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:39 am Post subject:
Thanks for the info, Scott. Really appreciate it.
Really cool for me to have a basic idea of how it's done. It really is something special and it must take a long time to match tones and correct some things you might not like and still not mess with the interplay at all, which obviously you do really well.
Reading your last sentence, Manic Carpet came to mind straight away for some reason. Grey blooms wonderfully in the right hands.
Hi Scott,
i saw you at the Blue Note in Shanghai last year and hope to see you again soon!
I know it was many years ago but one of my favorite Tribal Tech record is Face First. Even if that was the time where you were using Lee Jackson preamp, to my ears the guitar sound on this record seems very different from Illicit and Reality Check ones. Do you remember if you recorded the guitar in a different way for Face First record or if you used different gear?
Thanks a lot
Gianluigi
I don't want to sound rude, but for me this was the worst tone I ever had on a Tribal Tech album. The amp was a Boogie Studio Preamp with a 290 power amp, but that wasn't the problem. We call that album "Bass First", because it was mixed on a set of Yamaha NS-10 speakers. Those are meant to be used for mixing the top end, not the whole band. Yet because of plain stupidity and lack of experience, and without naming names, those speakers were used to mix everything. Therefore we ended up with an album where the bass was much, much louder than it's supposed to be.
When the mastering engineer heard it, he was shocked - he was like "who the fuck mixed this?" So, his job was to fix the album, or at least minimize the damage, by using EQ to reduce bass and add a ton of midrange, which is why everything, including my guitar, sounds so nasal. After the album came out, some of our fans wrote to us and asked "what happened?" The only song which managed to escaped this nightmare was "Revenge Stew", which somehow sounds great - probably because it's the only track with acoustic instruments.
Again, I don't mean to sound rude because you like the record - a lot of people do. I've heard it played on a few systems and thought it sounded OK, and also in some cars. On my system, the one I used to record albums like Vibe Station and People Mover, it sounds pretty bad, mainly because of all the artificial midrange the mastering engineer had to add.
I like to keep in mind that the music is more important than the production, and some of my favorite records were recorded very poorly. A lot of the old jazz records were recorded with just two microphones, but in this age of recording we always try to get the best tones we can. Some of our listeners are the "audiophile guys" and we want them to be happy. We failed them on Face First, but I'm glad you like the record anyway!
Scott, thank you so much for sharing this information. I saw my first Tribal Tech concert in 1992 in Italy at the Big Mama. You played many songs of Face First which had not been released yet and i remember it was amazing!
So maybe for this reason Face First album is very special for me.
Anyway love the tone of the Boogie preamp in that album and Tribal Tech album too.
Wish you all the best
Thanks, at the time I thought the Studio preamp and 290 power amp sounded pretty good. The reason for this type of gear was, back then everyone wanted to play in stereo, using stereo delay, chorus, reverb, etc. After doing it for awhile, I discovered that amps sound better, so I switched to a Boogie Rectifier head, and as I remember, Allan Holdsworth did that too. It's a bigger sound, with more bass. Now I'm using the same Marshall I played when I was 18, and I wish I never changed. Live and learn!
Hi Scott. It’s funny that I, after having seen you live at Umbia Jazz with Joe Zawinul, back in those days, I went totally crazy for your tone, and your true stereo rig, Quad preamp, 2x95 power amp etc etc... Therefore I bought exactely the same gear. But I had to figure out how to get a good couple speakers for the stereo thing. I was pretty young and with not enough money to afford buying further new gear. Then I ended up with cutting in half (!!) an old Marshall 4x12 straight cab of mine. I wish I had not gone that way, but weird things may happen when trying to chase your guitar hero tone!
Anyway, many pro players walked down the same path, getting back to amps and mono rigs after the big refrigerators era in the 80’s. I remember to have read stories like those told by Wayne Krantz, and many others.
What I can say now, is that you used ho have a very special tone in those days, probably due to the micro delay between the two stereo channels. That was with no doubt a benefit for clean parts and volume swells. But I love your current tone and the old school approach of yours nowadays - guitar, amp and a bunch of pedals when going live. BTW I’m walking the same path. Mainly because I can’t afford anymore carrying around such heavy and bulky things. My back says thanks . But I can’t forget the magic of that tone. The true stereo, even if apparently driving a lack of bass, was somehow cleaning up in a nice way the distorted tones, making your guitar sing like a flute. Awesome! _________________ Germino Club 40 plexi replica + EJ Strat w Suhr ML st. pups. I'm not asking for more so far (but... who knows...?)
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. But I can’t forget the magic of that tone. The true stereo, even if apparently driving a lack of bass, was somehow cleaning up in a nice way the distorted tones, making your guitar sing like a flute. Awesome!