Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:41 am Post subject:
owenvaughan wrote:
But it seems people do not vote with their pockets or attendance.
I must admit I agree a little bit with what Paul C has said about the general apathy of - at least in the UK - so called hard core guitar fans.
O
Hey Owen,
I had to deal with the same in Southern California trying to drum up interest for various gigs at Tone Merchants in Orange County. $20 for gigs in an intimate setting by the likes of Allan Holdsworth, Mike Landau, Scott Henderson, Guthrie, Carl Verheyen, Chris Poland and OHM, Kirk Fletcher, etc. and it was a real chore to draw even 50 people. All these people would tell me, "Oh, I can't wait! I'll be there for sure." and then they never show up: "Oh, my mother-in-law invited us to dinner at the last minute and I couldn't get away." Blah, blah, blah...
It really became demoralizing after a while. OC is an affluent area with a population of over 3 million, minutes away from Disneyland and I couldn't get a real scene going despite having access to some of the greatest players in the world to play there at almost any time. I lost so much money with a lot of those shows (as the artists certainly had to be paid and they were very reasonable in terms of what they asked for) that I eventually gave up. TM still holds shows every now and then, but it's like once every several months at the most. It really is sad... _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
The main problem for me was that the all out guitar fest was that it was held on a Sunday. I was happy to travel up when it was originally mentioned but when the location was changed even though it wasn't actually that far from the original venue, it made it more difficult as I'd have to stay over and take a day off work. I did have four other people coming with me as well.
I think there is something that most people don't take into account when organising these events. Guitar players that appreciate 'real' guitar are few and far between, so filling a venue with an a appreciative audience is going to be a tough one because the people just aren't out there.
I've been involved with a few events of this type and even linked up with Steve Lukather's guy in the UK to promote Luke's solo el grupo tour a couple of years back. It was bloody hard work getting a good sized audience in the mean fiddler for Steve Lukather with all the help from the Toto forum and street teams etc. After the gig Luke invited people backstage, put time aside and thanked all the guys that had helped fill the place so even he knows it's hard.
I play in Brighton and as ridiculous as it sounds I could play original songs at the same venue that Guthrie might play and end up with more passing trade than he gets and he is known in Brighton. I saw GG, Jamie Humphries, Dave K, Ritchie Kotsen at a venue in Brighton. I also saw Matthias Eklundh there too. Each time the place was only half full whereas I've played there and filled the place in the past. What I'm saying here is pretty obvious really, if the bands themselves do the work they can create enough interest to fill a venue because in the case of GG and Mattias Eklundh the promotors didn't.
I understand Owen is doing a great job for guitar players and I have no doubt that the show must have been great but whether everyone else on the bill realises it or not Guthrie truly is in a league of his own and should be working to promote himself. He is falling down badly in that respect in my opinion. He doesn't have a fully functional website and as far as I know he hasn't posted a single comment on this forum since I've been around either. He has Ed, Mr C and Owen doing their thing on his behalf but if he wants to be what he his capable of becoming in terms of stature then he needs to get a real team together and make contact with his audience. If he's in a happy place being one of the most talented guitar players on the planet and quite content to earn a living doing what he does then I can understand why he hasn't pushed for legend status, but something tells me he should as not that many people have to ability or the right to wear that tag.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:54 am Post subject:
Ant711UK wrote:
The main problem for me was that the all out guitar fest was that it was held on a Sunday. I was happy to travel up when it was originally mentioned but when the location was changed even though it wasn't actually that far from the original venue, it made it more difficult as I'd have to stay over and take a day off work. I did have four other people coming with me as well.
I think there is something that most people don't take into account when organising these events. Guitar players that appreciate 'real' guitar are few and far between, so filling a venue with an a appreciative audience is going to be a tough one because the people just aren't out there.
I've been involved with a few events of this type and even linked up with Steve Lukather's guy in the UK to promote Luke's solo el grupo tour a couple of years back. It was bloody hard work getting a good sized audience in the mean fiddler for Steve Lukather with all the help from the Toto forum and street teams etc. After the gig Luke invited people backstage, put time aside and thanked all the guys that had helped fill the place so even he knows it's hard.
I play in Brighton and as ridiculous as it sounds I could play original songs at the same venue that Guthrie might play and end up with more passing trade than he gets and he is known in Brighton. I saw GG, Jamie Humphries, Dave K, Ritchie Kotsen at a venue in Brighton. I also saw Matthias Eklundh there too. Each time the place was only half full whereas I've played there and filled the place in the past. What I'm saying here is pretty obvious really, if the bands themselves do the work they can create enough interest to fill a venue because in the case of GG and Mattias Eklundh the promotors didn't.
I understand Owen is doing a great job for guitar players and I have no doubt that the show must have been great but whether everyone else on the bill realises it or not Guthrie truly is in a league of his own and should be working to promote himself. He is falling down badly in that respect in my opinion. He doesn't have a fully functional website and as far as I know he hasn't posted a single comment on this forum since I've been around either. He has Ed, Mr C and Owen doing their thing on his behalf but if he wants to be what he his capable of becoming in terms of stature then he needs to get a real team together and make contact with his audience. If he's in a happy place being one of the most talented guitar players on the planet and quite content to earn a living doing what he does then I can understand why he hasn't pushed for legend status, but something tells me he should as not that many people have to ability or the right to wear that tag.
Tony
Hey Tony,
Thanks for your input and I can totally relate. We all know how difficult it is. Like I said, I was really hoping to turn Tone Merchants into a haven for 'real' guitar-oriented music and it just didn't pan out as I thought it would and I came to understand the overall economics of it. It's really a tough scene and I came to see that the "density" (as I came to view it) of fans within a given area needed to be much higher to fill a venue of a certain size.
There's a venue called The Grove in Orange County about a mile from Tone Merchants and that's the place where guys like Vai, Satch, EJ, and Jeff Beck would play. It's, I guess, what'd be called medium-small venue of around 1000~1500 people. The G3 kind of guys would play there once every year or two and it'd be tough for them to fill that venue. I saw Vai play at a club in Phoenix back in '99 and there were, at most, 350~400 people. So, eventually, I came to understand how tough the market is for virtuosic instrumental guitar music.
Someone like Landau could fill the Baked Potato and draw around 100 people on Fri and Sat nights, but I remember seeing Brett Garsed there several times around 5 years ago and there were less than 30 people every night. I remember seeing Allan Holdsworth at the Catalina Bar & Grill in Hollywood once and there were less than 20 people. Considering those episodes, drawing around 70 for Allan the first two nights at TM was pretty good, but the attendance for the following Allan shows dropped down rather dramatically afterwards. I came to understand that the "density" was low. Plus, TM isn't a club that serves alcohol, so that heavily worked against bringing back repeat customers.
I still believe that Guthrie would be a different case, though. I've heard that the attendance at the Bassment has been growing steadily for a while now where the Thu night Fellowship gigs would consistently draw 100+ people. Guthrie would do well in LA. He'd become a regular at the Baked Potato and a few other guitar-oriented clubs. I think he'd be able to play at TM once a month and fill that room on a regular basis with proper marketing. What Guthrie has is that he can appeal to non-players as well and the 'real' guitar guys can bring their wives or girlfriends and other friends who aren't guitar heads as long as they appreciate good music and great musicianship.
I understand what you mean about wishing Guthrie would promote himself more and things like that. Sometimes I wish the same! But Guthrie is Guthrie and a pure musician to the core who's not really comfortable with the business aspects of this industry. I can totally relate. It's not something I'm comfortable with either even though I work at Suhr Guitars and have worked at Fender for over 10 years. I'm not your typical sales guy and hated that aspect of it running the Tone Merchants business. If I hadn't gotten into the music industry I'd probably have been a writer, a historian, a scientist or an academician of some sort. I myself really hate "business" sometimes.
Well, there's still some time for Guthrie. Let's see how things shake out. It's not like his ability is going to go downhill anytime soon! In fact, it'll just get better and better. Fortunately, this isn't a sport where an athlete with comparable type of world-class talent only has a limited time to exploit it to the fullest. I think we need to look at Guthrie in the context of the next 20 years or more and he's just getting started. I don't envision Guthrie becoming as big as Vai or someone like that and I'm sure Guthrie doesn't either. He just keeps making music and we'll see how it goes. I think we can say safely that Guthrie won't concern himself with his image and savvy marketing as Vai does (or even Satch). It's just not who he is. But let's just see how things go. Ultimately, I believe it'll be up to the music he comes up with that'll determine his career. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
In terms of the Alloutguitarfest, I think that part of the problem was a late finish on a Sunday night, and the nature of the acts as a whole - I certainly wouldn't want to sit through most of the acts on the bill just to see Guthrie play, and I wouldn't want to turn up at 11pm just to see him either - that's not a criticism of any of the acts as I'm sure they're all great musicians, but more an issue of musical style - I'm not really into the whole eighties instrumental rock thing that seems to be a theme of alloutguitar in general.
I think this also highlights a bit of a problem in marketing Guthrie - his style encompasses several genres which is part of his appeal but it makes him harder to categorise and therefore sell. Personally I like the blues/jazz/fusion side of Guthrie's playing & would rather see him playing with other people of that ilk, but that's just my taste - it's not exactly the most popular style of music anyway!
Paul C - Any chance of a Guthrie/Richie Kotzen double headlining mini tour? Now that would be worth seeing.
Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 122 Location: chair, in front of desk
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:00 am Post subject:
owenvaughan wrote:
No one else from this site though - which I must admit is gravely disapointing as we have alway heard from everyone - often UK based - about how much they are into all of this.
But it seems people do not vote with their pockets or attendance.
I must admit I agree a little bit with what Paul C has said about the general apathy of - at least in the UK - so called hard core guitar fans.
We got approx 370-400.
I think that's just the nature of the whole thing, Owen.
Personally, I was away on holiday, but if I had been in the UK, would I have gone? Well, probably not. I love Guthrie's music, but I wouldn't want to hear just a stream of guitar players for a whole evening. It'd be the same at home listening to CDs... after an hour of intensive instrumental guitar, I'd want to hear some Haydn, Sonic Youth or whatever, not more instrumental guitar.
Still, I think you did well to attract ~400, which is good for such a niche interest.
(Also, as Jon says, there's the issue of Sunday night... for many people attending by public transport, the time/location would have necessitated an overnight stay... an extra £40 to budget for)
Joined: 12 Sep 2004 Posts: 55 Location: Cambridge, UK
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the replys - it seems as if we have had more activity here after the event than before it!
Let me answer a few very good points that have been raised.
First of all I and the team are, in reflection, not discouraged - lets face it on an early Autumnal night, in the middle of provincial UK not on our homeground we attracted almost 400 through the door. But to answer a few points:
1) Sunday Factor...
We originally had a venue and location booked for the Saturday of that weekend, and as such booked all the acts.
The venue then let us down, and rather than cancel the whole thing - as many of the artitst had already confirmed and changed their schedules to be able to play -we decided to go for broke and do it on the Sunday anyway rather than blow the whole thing out.
2) Attracting the punters (and also that 80's thang):
Bearing in mind the locality of where the gig was held, we booked some acts because we knew they would draw in the punters on a local basis:
Specifically:
Heavy Load - 70's Stevie Ray Vaughan band - and lots of festivals across out Uk and Europe. Not 80's.....
Redsoxx - a combination of 70's and 80's funkrock (think Wild Cherry/Stevie Wonder) mixed in with some typical Van Halen/Doobie Bros crowd pleasers. We played to 3000 in Cambridge a few weeks ago and are doing many medium festivals in the UK next year such as Biker gigs, Americana etc. I booked us - as opposed to doing my solo material stuff - to appeal to the general gig goer and we got over 200 of our regulars as a result. We would have pulled 300 if it wasn't for the fact that it was a Sunday. We are not really 80's at all - apart from the fact that I put in some more overtly technical playing than your average pub player.
Not 80's as defined by the definitions normally ascribed to as 80's rock...
Sacred Mother Tongue (Andy James lot) - Totally current up to date metal.
Of the acts based miles away:
Phil Hilborne - Most of hi set was 70's based - and with Rob Harris form Funk titans Jamiriquai joining forces to do some Jeff Beck - again not 80's in my book!
Guthrie + Rob Harris agin - nuff said
Phil Hilborne and Bernie Marsden (70's ear Whitesnake and repected bules guitarist) and Rob H arris agin - classic 70's and early 80's covers and instrumentals......
The only 80's acts (as determined by some of the earlier posts) are Chris Francis (30 minut set) doing his Nuno/Gilbert stuff, Simon Lees (30 mins) and Ed Box's Vendetta (approx 45 mins).
But in almost hours of music I do not think that '80's' really is a fair or apt description of what we did.
Advertising/online etc
As ever word of mouth by far the best; however
All the local newspapers were great
National UK Guitar Publishers - very unsupportative (apart from MB Media)
Obviously Alloutguitar.com did its job!
Other sites not too helpfull though.
The Future:
We will be doing another load of these - and will take on board all comments. Some major Guitar companies and Guitar Institutes will be involved so watch this space!
Lessons learnt:
Chiefly NEVER to do this again - UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! - on a Sunday!
Also not to do another 2 p.m. - midnite show.
Maybe a Saturday 5 p.m. - 11ish?
John Wheatcroft was down, Dave Kilminster (Roger Waters) was hanging out - and some other very interesting world class players have all expressed serious intent to play another one.
Hi Owen I went to the gig took my girlfriend and enjoyed it very much !
please dont be discouraged from doing future gigs like these
any new idea will always have a few teething troubles but i believe that these gigs could grow into something really special
you only had to look round in there to see 65% of the leading guitarschool tutors standing about and having a beer so you must have been doing something right!
it was also a great night for networking with the acts and other players!
maybe a erotic cakes set followed by an fellowship set would be the big crowd pleaser ala the infamous tone merchants gigs at namm!
keep fighting the good fight and i will keep coming to watch
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 146 Location: Not behind Tesco's any more but still in in Whitstable
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:39 am Post subject:
Jon wrote:
Paul C - Any chance of a Guthrie/Richie Kotzen double headlining mini tour? Now that would be worth seeing.
Hello Jon,
It would be great as Richie would love to come back over, we have done it before with Cakes supporting RK and over 6 shows it cost me personally about £4500 as people will not show up, these were all shows that started at 8.00 and normally finished by 10.30 / 11.00 in city centres with great public transport etc. Of the shows that I promoted at the club in Whitstable we had people just turning up from Japan!! I kid you not, we had 15 guys fly in from Main in the US, people from Holland France Germany, ohh and 4 guys from Ashford in Kent (15 min drive to Whitstable) who said it was to far to go?? _________________ GoldFish Don't Bounce.
Paul C - Any chance of a Guthrie/Richie Kotzen double headlining mini tour? Now that would be worth seeing.
Hello Jon,
It would be great as Richie would love to come back over, we have done it before with Cakes supporting RK and over 6 shows it cost me personally about £4500 as people will not show up, these were all shows that started at 8.00 and normally finished by 10.30 / 11.00 in city centres with great public transport etc. Of the shows that I promoted at the club in Whitstable we had people just turning up from Japan!! I kid you not, we had 15 guys fly in from Main in the US, people from Holland France Germany, ohh and 4 guys from Ashford in Kent (15 min drive to Whitstable) who said it was to far to go??
Is the lack of interest down to the marketing? I would have loved to see those shows but didn't hear about them. I saw Richie at the Bar Academy in Birmingham about 3 years ago but didn't hear anything about Richie gigs with Erotic Cakes supporting him (apart from the Whitstable gig a few years ago with Stevie Salas and Richie). I would have thought that with a bit of the right promotion, a tour like that would be popular/profitable. But as you say, people swear blind that they are going, then never turn up (I know this from my own gigs).
this was a great show man...thanks a lot owen for letting me meet Guthrie...Im back to Singapore now and busy with work but Guthrie is always on my playlist;)....
I have some videos of Guthrie playing at Alloutguitarfest which I can contribute....Just lemme know where to post em owen
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But Guthrie is Guthrie and a pure musician to the core who's not really comfortable with the business aspects of this industry. I can totally relate. It's not something I'm comfortable with either even though I work at Suhr Guitars and have worked at Fender for over 10 years. I'm not your typical sales guy and hated that aspect of it running the Tone Merchants business. If I hadn't gotten into the music industry I'd probably have been a writer, a historian, a scientist or an academician of some sort. I myself really hate "business" sometimes.
In fact, it'll just get better and better. Fortunately, this isn't a sport where an athlete with comparable type of world-class talent only has a limited time to exploit it to the fullest. I think we need to look at Guthrie in the context of the next 20 years or more and he's just getting started. I don't envision Guthrie becoming as big as Vai or someone like that and I'm sure Guthrie doesn't either. He just keeps making music and we'll see how it goes. I think we can say safely that Guthrie won't concern himself with his image and savvy marketing as Vai does (or even Satch). It's just not who he is. But let's just see how things go. Ultimately, I believe it'll be up to the music he comes up with that'll determine his career.
