Guthrie Govan Discussion

[frankus]

I got few choice morsels of theory brain candy from a guy on another forum. It cited 4 different approaches to improvising over chords.. or relating chords to scales/modes.

Does anyone use them and have any strong feelings about which is better in some situations and why?
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[Gojirosan]

Instinct for me.

I am primarily an improvisor, yet my music theory knowledge is microscopic verging upon the non-existant.

I didn't even understand several of the poll options!

I slide up the notes quietly until I get in the right key, and then just go for it! These days, if I know the key prior to starting (like Fink's Am backing track on the afore-mentioned other forum) then I can usually go to the "right" note straight away, as my knowledge of the fretboard IS improved greatly upon my first 12 or so years of guitar playing!

[kirk95]

Can you explain what each appoach is? For example Lydian Dom is a mode of the melodic minor scale. How is that an appoach to improv?

[Fink Floyd]

I may be totally wrong here, but I think Frankus may be referring to an approach John Petrucci (and probably others) takes to improvising over a chord progression which has a non-diatonic chord in it, namely by playing the Lydian Dominant of the root of said chord when it comes up (so if your non-diatonic chord has a C root, you'd play C Lydian Dominant, or some such). I think that's what he means - when it comes to this sorta stuff, I understand all the individual words in a sentence, but have difficulty understanding them when they're all joined up.

So I think the question may relate to if you have any improvisational devices to aid you when a situation comes up with which you're not totally comfortable when improvising.

Now if you'll excuse me, thinking of theory has made my head hurt, so I'm going to go lie down.
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Mmmm...Sacrelicious.

[frankus]

Goddamn how can I maintain the illusion of misunderstood evil insane genius when you ask for clarification.. it'll soon become apparent I'm a gibbering fool...

I meant the Lydian Chromatic, to be honest I've never heard of it before, but I think it starts with the assumption that lydian should be the key center not ionian, which certainly simplifies the modes when you write out the C ionian, C dorian, C lydian etc.. they'll all stack up behind the lydian on a cycle of fifths. Obviously to a musicians ear the lydian is pushing to go round another 5th..

I'm currently writing an evil uber Perl script to unlock all the secrets of the derivative system.. muh hah ha ha ha hah.. hmm.. anyway.. so that's why the phrasing was sketchy.. I apologise

Derivitive is using related scale structures to apply to chords like Emily Remler and her "play the melodic minor starting from a fifth above root" over a static dominant chord, play the melodic minor up a semitone from the root position for functioning dominant chords. It's like memorising a list of mappings: for that chord think this scale starting on that note, stuff. Eg: for B flat 7 play F melodic minor.

Parallel is using the modes of scales to apply to the chord, so you'll end up playing the super locrian mode or lydian dominant mode over the functioning or static dominant chord, respectively. You use the mode starting off the root note of the chord you're playing over. Eg. For B flat 7 play Bb lydian dominant.

I'm really sorry if this isn't clear.. I'm trying to communicate and not grandstand .. honest mister.

The Lydian Chromatic is totally new and I'm trying to find out about it. The example says for B flat 7 play A flat lydian augmented. (but that scale is not a million miles from the marva raga scale )

Lastly the common tone theory seems to be match a mode or scale to the common tones of the chords using the key signature as a reference point. So C dorian, C ionian, C mixolydian, C jazz minor should (according to my calculations) all work over D minor in the key of C.

Is this any clearer.. or am I still naval gazing in a cul-de-sac?
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Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[Donnie B.]

[alexkhan]

Some of these concepts are way beyond what I can apply in my playing. I understand how they can be used, but a lot of practice will be needed (at least for me!) to grasp each one of them and actually apply on top of a given piece of music. About the only concepts I could probably use are common tones, a little bit of parallel and perhaps a tad of derivative. I wish I had the time to practice such things...
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[Carlo]

[shredguitar]

[frankus]

I'll get my coat...

I just got handed an essay discussing each style and I guess I use a bit of each, but mostly common tone. I was curious as to what techniques people used, I want to research each more thoroughly, as I never realised they were distinct, it would certainly simplify learning them.
_________________
Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"

I have the power!

[jason.morris]

A mixed bag for me.

Usually parallel, particularly if I'm on the chord for a period of time - but sometimes derivative, particularly if using a substituted pentatonic scale, or a minor/major 7 arpeggio a semitone up from the root of a functioning dominant chord for example.

[M@]

When one of my former jazz teachers showed me the "play a Melodic Minor scale one fret up from a dominant seventh chord" trick it really blew my mind. It was like all of a sudden I could understand (and digest) what Robben Ford was playing to get that real tension when moving from the I-7th chord up to the IV-7th chord - Hallelujah!!!

And of course, using tri-tone substition by playing the Melodic Minor starting from the 5th of the I-7th chord works just as sweet (i.e. over G7 you can play Ab Melodic Minor and/or D Melodic Minor when moving into a C7 chord - I-7th to IV-7th).

I think this is what Frankus is referring to as static dominants (for vamping) and functioning dominants (for resolving). The book "Inner jazz: Creative substitution principles for melodic improvisation" by Les Wise gives a good explanation.

I haven't checked out the Emily Remler video yet. I do remember I was going to see one of her gigs in Sydney, Australia, but unfortunately she died of a Heroin overdose the night before...

[EricT]

It's a mixed bag, for sure. That's because I've learned theory from several different places. For V7 chords, I think super locrian, but I think maj7 arpeggio down a whole step. And sometimes I think(or rather hear) chord tones, like "oh, a #9 fits here". Other times I think tone center scale with chromatics added, i.e. on a II-V-I in C, I'll use C ionian and just add other notes as I see fit(Jimmy Bruno's approach, I think)...
It's a trainwreck of different approaches, and a lot of times it sounds like one as well!
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"Fishing for the right note"

[M@]

Yeah, I think as musicians we tend pick up bits and pieces along the way. The possibilities are limitless (that's why we love it so much, right?).

One really cool book I'd like to share that I've been going thru of late is "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine. It lays down a lot of the great ideas from the past legends in a nice digestible format. Everything from the basics thru to Advanced Reharmonization, Outside Playing, Coltrane Changes and song form.

The book really helps to put things back into perspective - almost overstating the obvious. On the topic of outside playing he says "play with authority" (i.e. don't be wimpy when you wanna play outside) and tells us to remember the formula "inside-outside-inside" when soloing, giving lot's of examples of the great players on just how to do it.

[James W]

I just cop out and use instinct ... conviction helps



... James xXxXxXxXxX