Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: Govanesque
Some may or may not agree, but I feel that Guthrie has some very unique qualities and character in his playing, phrasing and sound that instantly tell me that it's him. Yeah, I'm biased and there's something about Guthrie's style that just connects with me without me even trying to "get it" like I sometimes need to do with other great players. And some guys, I try and try and still don't get it, so it just shows that music really is so subjective and personal.
Besides the obvious like Guthrie's unparalleled all-around chops and versatility, there are certain things about his playing and music that really stand out for me:
The first thing that stands out for me is the overall positive vibe: the playing and the music is most often quite uplifting, even when the tune is in a minor key. The mood is never heavy, pretentious, sappy or overwrought. It's not goody-good happy or like some party music either. There's an uplifting quality in Guthrie's music that I can't quite pinpoint but is definitely there. It never sounds like some mysterious modal kind of stuff either unless he shoots for that on purpose (like in 'Erotic Cakes', for instance) and done sort of tongue-in-cheek. At times there is humor without a conscious effort to be funny.
Another aspect of Guthrie's playing and music, which I've discussed before, is his ability to go outside and still sound in. He definitely ventures outside fearlessly but has a way of sounding almost diatonic through it all. Of course, many players have this ability (especially in jazz) but not many are good at finding the happy medium like Guthrie does, especially in rock playing. Very often, many rock players seem to go outside to show they can go outside for the sake of it but don't really connect from a musical standpoint. Guthrie can also play all diatonic and sometimes sound "out". I guess it's all just creativity. I highly doubt Guthrie sits around and thinks about the in vs. out debate.
And then there's Guthrie's tone. I won't go as far as to say it's as distinctive as EVH, EJ, SRV, Jimi, Beck, Allan, etc., but it's got a nice mix of juicy singing highs and dry woody mids that's immediately identifiable to me. Guthrie's not really all that into a lot of bass or the sound being too big and clashing with frequencies of other instruments in the mix, so some may say that he can use more lows in his sound, but I really like his tone and where it sits in the mix. It's a very organic sound and I feel like I could really hear the woods and the strings, not the preamp gain of the amp. I believe Guthrie's sound will continue to improve but, at the same time, I feel that he's got a signature sound that he could say it's his own: modern but natural and organic although obviously not vintage.
Of course, then there's Guthrie's phrasing. At times, there is that classical type of precision that some old school players don't really dig in the way Guthrie phrases, but I don't think he could be faulted for it. Some listeners into the more jazz/blues kind of thing have told me that Guthrie is too "even" and too on the beat and I could sometimes hear that myself, but perhaps it's the shred kind of background that Guthrie is still trying to shed in his playing. Being that I myself was a fan of that style of playing in the 80's, I don't mind it at all and feel that Guthrie's phrasing in those types of mediums is just fine. He does still sound most at home in a rock setting and I don't think Guthrie views himself as a full-blown jazz player - at least, not yet.
Guthrie's phrasing still kills me. I think this is one aspect of his playing that he's constantly working on when he teaches or transcribes and when he's playing with the Fellowship. I think he's still working on making it all sound more elastic. That's one thing I really noticed when I saw Landau and Henderson play recently - there was this "loopiness" in their phrasing while still being in time. They played in and out of time at will, it seemed. Harmonically and melodically, both Mike and Scott had a lot to offer as well in that they were rather unpredictable, but then, what they're doing is quite different from what Guthrie is doing. Landau's thing was more rhythmic while Scott's thing was more harmonically out there in what he's playing over the changes. To me, Guthrie's thing is more of a melodic inventiveness kind of a thing that he excels in.
Well, I'm just musing here. It's been a while since I posted anything of relevance here and I realized that I've been thinking about these things everytime I listen to Guthrie lately. Seeing Landau and Scott recently also made me think about these things as well, so I thought I'd just ramble on! _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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I agree that he has some very special qualities - like all great players.
For me it's his sense of melody - not just pretty melody but weird, quirky yet intelligent sounding melody.
I always feel there's a distinct European/ classical feel in his music. Would love him to get more into contemporary classical music like Bartok, de Bussy, Teverner, Takemitsu ....
Ed, I agree with all that you said, and not only that, GG never displays any kind of ego, he seems such a good guy. The kind of guy you know that if you met him you'd get along great and never feel uncomfortable around him.
I think people focussing on Guthrie's "shredding" are overlooking the fact that he plays equally as much country phrasing and bluesey stuff in a jazz context as he does "shredding" which to be fair stood next to Zak just seems like he's playing lines similar to Zak.. it's not a conscious effort to shred.
Perhaps dyed in the wool jazzers think a guitar shouldn't cross over into sax territory?
I kinda think Guthrie's style has a relaxed feel because it's not stuff that's being pushed out at full pelt, it's polished and matured (but not cheesey ;^) whereas a lot of players get it up to speed and play it. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:00 am Post subject:
Well, I don't think it's so much the "shredding" thing that some people pick on or comment about. There are many jazz artists with chops and speed that most shredders can only dream of attaining. I think it has more to do with rhythmic kinds of things like syncopation and not being so on the beat like most rock guys and even classical musicians.
I agree that Guthrie doesn't consciously try to "shred" or whatever. It just seems that some of his lines come off as being rock-shred to the more jazz-oriented listeners. I think it's more about Guthrie's classical type of precision than a rock shred kind of a thing. Let's face it: Guthrie is simply way, way beyond that shred kind of stuff. To the jazz/fusion guys (espcially the jazzholes), it's about: "Well, can he swing?" Well, what does "swing" mean anyway?
Guthrie's got ways to go. As I always like to say, that's the exciting part about him. The future is unlimited. The next 20~30 years are going to be amazing. The impression I got from Guthrie is that he wants to keep learning and improving constantly. It's an inspiring attitude that I can relate with very much. I'm just not all that interested in what's happened in the past. I'm always thinking about tomorrow and the future. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:56 am Post subject:
sieuminh wrote:
I agree that he has some very special qualities - like all great players.
For me it's his sense of melody - not just pretty melody but weird, quirky yet intelligent sounding melody.
I always feel there's a distinct European/ classical feel in his music. Would love him to get more into contemporary classical music like Bartok, de Bussy, Teverner, Takemitsu ....
Yeah, Guthrie is a true master of melody. The way he can take simple motifs and themes and extend them virtually endlessly is a truly marvelous thing to observe.
Yes, there is that European classical feel and vibe in his music and in his phrasing (which may be what hardcore American blues/jazz diehards find less than enlighteneing), but that's just who Guthrie is. He has open-heartedly absorbed so many styles and sounds - including stuff that some people just can't dig or relate to.
One of these days, I'm sure Guthrie will do a weird avant garde album for the sake of doing so and I'm sure his modern classical influence ranging from Bartok to Gershwin to Stravinsky to Zappa will surface. I can envision Guthrie releasing 50 albums that sound vastly different from each other. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 570 Location: gothenburg, sweden
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:55 am Post subject:
hey ed,
great post. been missing them. as always i more or less agree totally with you, but off course i have some issues. as usual with your somewhat californian musical temperament (just kidding, eh!). (well, spending last semester in new york certainly didn't make my ears cleaner, neither did it expose me to more slick music ;-D .)
alexkhan wrote:
The first thing that stands out for me is the overall positive vibe: the playing and the music is most often quite uplifting, even when the tune is in a minor key. The mood is never heavy, pretentious, sappy or overwrought. It's not goody-good happy or like some party music either. There's an uplifting quality in Guthrie's music that I can't quite pinpoint but is definitely there.
i totally agree. it's pure fun, positive, happy playing but extremely serious and advanced at the same time. but i do have the feeling that this is also a question of where gg is right now. he could probably do a lot darker, grittier and less sympathetic stuff. if he ever will, i don't know.
Quote:
It never sounds like some mysterious modal kind of stuff either unless he shoots for that on purpose (like in 'Erotic Cakes', for instance) and done sort of tongue-in-cheek. At times there is humor without a conscious effort to be funny.
well, the tongue in cheek is handled well by gg. although that's something that can become tiresome with many players. why be afraid of being serious? in my opinion: if you don't have pretensions, you should just shut up! and gg has them. it's obvious that he has something (musical) to say.
Quote:
Another aspect of Guthrie's playing and music, which I've discussed before, is his ability to go outside and still sound in. He definitely ventures outside fearlessly but has a way of sounding almost diatonic through it all. Of course, many players have this ability (especially in jazz) but not many are good at finding the happy medium like Guthrie does, especially in rock playing. Very often, many rock players seem to go outside to show they can go outside for the sake of it but don't really connect from a musical standpoint. Guthrie can also play all diatonic and sometimes sound "out". I guess it's all just creativity. I highly doubt Guthrie sits around and thinks about the in vs. out debate.
well, the "happpy medium" can't be anything else than a personal preference, can it ed? you happen to like what gg does, and that's why it's a "happy" (apart from "sad") medium ;-D
as you say, the question is complex, and the quality of our debate has been varied (but always fun). no, neither i believe gg thinks about how out or in he is he happens to have a certain vocabulary, tends to use certain musical (and personal) idioms. although i believe we've heard far from all of it, and that there are a lot of uglier stuff in there (i whish).
Quote:
And then there's Guthrie's tone. I won't go as far as to say it's as distinctive as EVH, EJ, SRV, Jimi, Beck, Allan, etc., but it's got a nice mix of juicy singing highs and dry woody mids that's immediately identifiable to me. Guthrie's not really all that into a lot of bass or the sound being too big and clashing with frequencies of other instruments in the mix, so some may say that he can use more lows in his sound, but I really like his tone and where it sits in the mix. It's a very organic sound and I feel like I could really hear the woods and the strings, not the preamp gain of the amp. I believe Guthrie's sound will continue to improve but, at the same time, I feel that he's got a signature sound that he could say it's his own: modern but natural and organic although obviously not vintage.
that's really on the spot! for me, the dry, woody, organic mids are the most significant thing. the fact that you hear a lot of fingers, strings and wood from gg, even in his most furious shredding moments (no, he doesn't shred, but it's a nice word), just makes me want to smile. i don't find the sound small because of the lack of bass. actually, i don't think it lacks bass at all.
Quote:
Of course, then there's Guthrie's phrasing. At times, there is that classical type of precision that some old school players don't really dig in the way Guthrie phrases, but I don't think he could be faulted for it. Some listeners into the more jazz/blues kind of thing have told me that Guthrie is too "even" and too on the beat and I could sometimes hear that myself,
it's true. but there's nothing wrong with being on the beat, if you're not a jazz nazi (read: reactionary) that is. wayne krantz (now talk about timing!) told me how fascinated he was with donald fagens timing (he's toured with him more than once), always being spot on the beat, and how he tried to incorporate that in his own playing, extremely groovy as it is. to be honest, i can't really hear that aspect of fagens timing too well, but if wayne says so i'm not gonna argue. the point here (in relation to gg) is that it's interesting that someone like wayne tries to play more on the beat, and that it obviously doesn't make him "swing" less. well, for my money, "swing" is the name for old mens lack of groove
Quote:
but perhaps it's the shred kind of background that Guthrie is still trying to shed in his playing. Being that I myself was a fan of that style of playing in the 80's, I don't mind it at all and feel that Guthrie's phrasing in those types of mediums is just fine. He does still sound most at home in a rock setting and I don't think Guthrie views himself as a full-blown jazz player - at least, not yet.
there are many kinds of music, and many ways of playing. to me, this is a non-issue. gg has a certain time and phrasing, i like it, some might not. no its not like richie kotzens or jim campilongos, who are often so far behind the beat that it sounds like they're loosing it, and i really love that as well.
Quote:
Guthrie's phrasing still kills me. I think this is one aspect of his playing that he's constantly working on when he teaches or transcribes and when he's playing with the Fellowship. I think he's still working on making it all sound more elastic. That's one thing I really noticed when I saw Landau and Henderson play recently - there was this "loopiness" in their phrasing while still being in time. They played in and out of time at will, it seemed. Harmonically and melodically, both Mike and Scott had a lot to offer as well in that they were rather unpredictable, but then, what they're doing is quite different from what Guthrie is doing. Landau's thing was more rhythmic while Scott's thing was more harmonically out there in what he's playing over the changes. To me, Guthrie's thing is more of a melodic inventiveness kind of a thing that he excels in.
yeah, gg might be developing towards that. scott has always had scary timing, but it definitely used to be more 'correct' and less relaxed than now. i can really relate to your desccription. that's what i kind of meant with guys like kotzen or campilongo (but this is now ONLY a question of time, not a general comparison)
BTW: is gg really THAT much on the beat?
Quote:
Well, I'm just musing here. It's been a while since I posted anything of relevance here and I realized that I've been thinking about these things everytime I listen to Guthrie lately. Seeing Landau and Scott recently also made me think about these things as well, so I thought I'd just ramble on!
keep 'em coming! the board has become a bit sleepy lately. i guess it's because we're in a pre record release limbo and that we've discussed so hard everything we can com up with based on the gg material that's out there.
when the album gets here, we're goin to have a shitstorm of opinions, analyzes, critiques etc. and i'm looking forward to it.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:41 am Post subject:
Yeah, when the album is finally released, there'll be an explosion of sorts.
I agree that we don't know where Guthrie will be, say, 5 or 10 years from now. I trust he will continually evolve. There are so many facets that he could cover. I've told Guthrie this several times - that I think he could be like the Pat Metheny of rock guitar: solo career with his own band, solo recordings as a one-man operation, collaborations with other artists, sideman gigs with established jazz/fusion masters, studio guest appearances on pop/rock/jazz albums of all sorts, progressive/experimental type of band, a guitar-driven techno record, an electric guitar concerto with an orchestra that's contemporary, and on and on and on.
Moving onto the phrasing/timing issue, it's not so much about the "on the beat" matter. It's probably more about the flow. We'll restrict the discussion strictly to Guthrie's work with the Fellowship here in regards to the rock/classical (some would say "European") vs. jazz/blues ("American") kind of a thing. It's probably more about the flow and also how the solos are constructed. For lack of a better way of describing this, I guess Guthrie's got more of a classical cadenza-like solo development as opposed to the more free-form ways of bop and jazz in general. Well, people have never defined what jazz is that people can agree on through its history anyway. I don't know what it is: syncopation? Swing? I do end up butting heads with jazzholes every now and then and I guess I'm trying to understand what they consider "proper" jazz. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 570 Location: gothenburg, sweden
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:20 am Post subject:
alexkhan wrote:
It's probably more about the flow and also how the solos are constructed. For lack of a better way of describing this, I guess Guthrie's got more of a classical cadenza-like solo development as opposed to the more free-form ways of bop and jazz in general.
yeah. i kind of agree. although a lot of genre typical jazz soloing (from different periods) are "classical cadenza-like" ... i wouldn't describe the commomn soloing approaches in "bop and jazz in general" as free-form at all, actually. but very idiomatic and cadenza structured. personally i believe that guthrie in his best moments are pretty free, when he sounds more like 'himself', when he doesn't tend to emulate genres and idioms (as expertly and creatively and personal as he does it). "ner-ner" is a good example i guess ...
alexkhan wrote:
Well, people have never defined what jazz is that people can agree on through its history anyway. I don't know what it is: syncopation? Swing? I do end up butting heads with jazzholes every now and then and I guess I'm trying to understand what they consider "proper" jazz.
stop trying ed! it's not worth it. and we shouldn't care i mean: who really gives reactionary jazzholes are a waste of time.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject:
Not that I really care about what jazzholes have to say, but I do know some respectable jazz guys and I do listen to what they have to say with some interest. Then after a little while, I'm thinking, "Yeah, yeah, okay, whatever..." _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject:
Another thing about Guthrie which I probably already mentioned: conviction and a sense of purpose in every note he plays. Every note is articulate and pops right out, even through his most blazing runs. Every note speaks and has a musical purpose. Every little bend or a slur, every run or a sweep or a torrent of tapped notes - they are all articulated with conviction and Guthrie's own distinctive feel. He doesn't recycle licks and runs for the sake of doing so or because he has run out of ideas like so many players do. It always sounds like he's saying something very clearly for the very first time. For me, this puts Guthrie up amongst the greats even at this early stage in his career. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
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Totally, there's a hell of a lot of physical action that goes into his articulation, all this economy of movement seems to go out the window as he chases the dynamics he wants out of a note.
.. and all that at warp speed too _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 570 Location: gothenburg, sweden
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:59 am Post subject:
yeah, it's like he lives in another time dimension. like the world passes by at half speed for him. he is sooo extremely 'there' in his phrasing, regardless, as u say ed, of the tempos. total conviction.
I had the pleasure of meeting Guthrie last Thursday when he did his set at the basement. A friend of mine helps him set up and picks him up and stuff. I had never heard of him before and was amazed at what i was watching him do.
Jazz isn't my first choice of music but for the few hours i was there it was like time stood still and i was in music heaven. After watching the first set my friend came over and asked if i would like to meet him, i was thinking "what do you say to someone like that" but he was great. Asking me about what i play and what equipment i use in my studio and when i told him he was fantastic he comes out with "I'm glad you approve" like my appinion was all that mattered. Great bloke.
Then to top it all off my friend said "Would you like to meet Dave Kilminster" he was a great guy too. Came especially to watch Guthrie.
I left that night amazed at what i had seen (or not seen as his fingers were a blur at times) and with 2 emotions, one of i think i will just put my guitar in the bin because how do you get that good, and two was me wanting to get home and practise like i've never practised before.
His in Japan at the moment doing a festival but he should be back at the basement in a few weeks. I know i'll be there _________________ Tanglewood Nothing profound to say apart from god Sarah Michelle Gellar would get it hard
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he happens to have a certain vocabulary, tends to use certain musical (and personal) idioms. although i believe we've heard far from all of it, and that there are a lot of uglier stuff in there (i whish).
I don't know what it is: syncopation? Swing? I do end up butting heads with jazzholes every now and then and I guess I'm trying to understand what they consider "proper" jazz.
at what i was watching him do.
