Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:04 am Post subject: The Pursuit of Freedom (Musical, that is...)
Lately, I've been getting into the history of mankind looking into some great figures who left their mark on history - ranging from ancient figures like Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar to artists like Leonardo da Vinci to scientists like Newton and Einstein to composers like Beethoven to politicians like Thomas Jefferson to Churchill to writers and philosophers like Tolstoy to Nietzsche, etc. and there's a common thread running between all of them. They sought freedom.
Mainly, what I notice is the freedom to do what they felt they must do and free themselves from the shackles of convention and limitations of what man can achieve or has achieved until they came along. After them, history was never the same. It's as though they summarized one era, make a quantum leap through bold (and sometimes revolutionary) innovation and usher in a new era of some sort of a higher revelation. As Virgil said in 'The Aenid', fortune does seem to favor the bold.
Now getting to music and Guthrie in particular, that's something I sense in Guthrie as well - this relentless pursuit of musical freedom, trying to break boundaries of what has been done and saying something new, breaking the shackles of what he considers as his limitations. Of all the classical composers, I sense this most deeply with Beethoven as he was quite the musical and artistic revolutionary in his day. He was like, "Screw all the rules."
I guess it's that spirit that I dig in an artist more than anything else. I sat around and thought about people I dig and greatly admire in all aspects of life and that is the common thread - breaking conventions, setting new standards, moving forward, just trying to be FREE... You know, you look around your life and there's always something you're trying to break free from: credit card debts, your in-laws, your bosses, your limitations on the guitar, the traffic, gravity, or whatever. There's always something holding you back that you'd like to break free from.
As I continue to listen to and watch Guthrie, it's that "pursuit of freedom" that really bonds in a sort of spiritual manner. Not really trying to get all heavy and stuff here, but when you think about it, there are subconscious reasons why you dig certain players or artists or politicians or other figures in all walks of life. And it's one of those aspects that simply won't change. Guthrie may change stylistically as the years go by, but I just know that he'll constantly strive to re-invent himself and seek out new directions. He'll seek to break free from some type of stylistic or artistic "cage". I think we all feel the same way. Indeed, there is a high price for freedom. And it's a never-ending thing... _________________ Ed Yoon
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I think it even goes a little further. What I mean is, it starts with the pursuit of freedom, but part of the magic is in the actual achieving of that musical freedom, and then, in turn, being able to demonstrate it on the instrument. I think that is what really captured me about Guthrie when I first saw the Tone Merchants clips.
It's weird how musical freedom always seems to start with a journey of taking in as much music as possible, almost as if you can't have musical freedom until you've experienced and soaked as much music as possible...as if musical freedom cannot be accomplished without first journeying through a stage of musical bondage.
While Guthrie is my favorite and single most influential guitarist in my playing right now, I think the two biggest guitarists to live in this musical freedom are/were Lane and Holdsworth. Putting all shred aside, it's almost like you can feel a sense of Shawn Lane's freedom when you closely watch him improvise, especially in a jazz context.
For me, I think the Fellowship clips really bring out Guthrie's freedom the best. It's like he slips into "Guthrie-land" where there is no telling what is coming next!
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:54 am Post subject:
Well, it goes without saying one has to have the skills and the will to pursue that freedom and actually live it. When you look at the names of the great historic figures I've mentioned, those types don't come around very often. The reason I mentioned those names is that they did what they did on their own terms, had the awesome talent, vision, boldness and the determination to pull it off, and essentially set new standards that everyone else strived for in their respective fields.
Obvisouly, Guthrie is still an evolving young artist, relatively speaking. To me, Guthrie strikes me as the type who will continue to evolve and improve over the next 20~30 years or until he dies - in the same way that someone like Mozart or Beethoven did over their lives as they matured. They just kept pushing the artistic envelope. I envision Guthrie doing the same, seeking new musical avenues and trying to do something he hasn't done before. And everytime I do see him, he's always saying something he hasn't said before on the instrument.
As you say, that unexpected from Guthrie is what makes him so fun and inspiring to listen to. With so many other players, you just sort of know what's coming. I think he's one very restless guy, artistically and musically speaking. He's got that Alexander-like pothos of seeking out the unknown. He's got long ways to go. Every new album will be different. You know the next one won't be anything like 'EC'. We just don't know what to expect. He's just going to go where he wants and wherever the muse guides him and I say that's freedom! _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:14 am Post subject:
Speaking of Beethoven and musical and artistic freedom, here's a great quote of his:
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. Music is the electrical soil, in which the spirit lives, thinks, and invents." _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Maybe Guthrie has found the perfect balance between musical freedom and accessibility to the ears of the common person (in contrast to Lane and Holdsworth), which you've mentioned in different terms in a handful of other threads. Sometimes I think that makes a guitarist more accessible among other guitarists with similar musical interests as well. I still remember an old thread a couple years ago on the Petrucci forum that was entitled something like "Check this guy out!", with a link that redirected me to the Tone Merchants page. Music would never be the same for me since then
Now we just need to make sure that Guthrie stays in good health and doesn't do anything stupid so he can give us another 20-30 years of active playing . I'd hate to see another scenario where we have only 2 or 3 albums which barely capture the even the first bit of the musician's essence, with most of the real gems being in the scattered home and personal video on YouTube.
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 84 Location: Oklahoma, U.S.
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:56 am Post subject:
Man this is a great thread. I agree whole heartedly with the pursuit of freedom as a measure of one's relevence to any pursuit. I however would add one element. That is a firm invocation of the themes that seem restrictive in ones music and the struggle for freedom against those constraints. Let me give an example: Pat Metheny's "Zero tolerence for silence". It was an unabashed blow stricken for freedom of expression but there was no musical context within the body of work to outline the constructs against which the musical energy was expended. Without the invocation of discipline, in an auditory way, the freedom of expression lacked any sense of relevence. I think genius is best demonstrated against the backdrop of convention so that the listener has some context of where things are and where the artist is wanting to go. In my very humble opinion that is what makes Guthrie and my other favorites more than just great players, but rather great musical minds. They show me what I know, i.e., the conventions that define my idea of what is possible, then they show me what musical freedom can bring within that context. My two cents. _________________ It goes to eleven!
The pursuit of freedom only has clear meaning in a less than permissive society. People seeking to be free in a totalitarian state have a far easier job, defining, and therefore, finding freedom, than people in a democracy. To me, freedom is a relative value, probably identified on Maslow's Hierarchy of needs as a yearning for the properties of the next highest strata.
I think freedom can mean a generic concept of being unaccountable to established and arbitrary concepts. So without a framework or with a subtle framework ( civilisation or free-form jazz), many may desire freedom but lack the perception to identify the areas they want to improve.
I believe that some people are born or raised outside convention and are by default unconventional. These people are ideally suited to find the path less travelled to get where they want to be, finding short circuits or free rides.. following intuition rather than received wisdom. By this chalk, some people who are challenging the system are not conscious and are unwitting iconoclasts
I think Guthrie isn't consciously challenging anything so his music is natural but his love of quirky stuff means his music is ever changing for his own amusement. He's at one with his inner-freak - like Phillip K Dick writing about a vastly different world and then enjoying making it fall apart.. it's our subjectivity that makes Guthrie a guru/iconoclast... and for that reason Guthrie won't write a tune like Derek Small's Jazz Odyssey unless it amuses him, which means that some part of it will be accessible to us, because he can tell a good story be it on a guitar, in a book or in conversation.
He seems to like sharing stuff, which means he's going to be mindful of his audience.
Anyway, that's my perception.. it might be flawed or wholly inaccurate and the insights into his character are definitely presumptuous. I'd liken him to Sherlock Holmes from the books .. NOT the films or tv shows. _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: Yeah
I think guthrie seems to be more the kind of bloke to come up with the zappa quote " I liked the way it sounded". _________________ "The reason why guthrie is so good, is that he doesen't spend most of his time on the petrucci forum bitching about vai"
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:04 am Post subject:
hedofabum wrote:
I think you all think about Guthrie too much.
He'd probably piss himself to know you're all taking him so seriously. Lighten up!
The kissing ass line has been torn to shreds.
Guthrie may think it's all bizarre but I'm sure he gets some good chuckles out of all this as well. Hey, anything to keep him on the edge.
You know, Guthrie studied literature at Oxford for a while. And if you've read his Creative Guitar books, you'll be able to tell right away that he is one very intelligent fellow who likes to think about a lot of things. And having conversed with him at length about various matters that have nothing to do with the guitar or music, he's quite up to date on what's going on around the world and has interest in a variety of subjects.
Hey, this is a Guthrie forum, fans are free to talk about anything at all that has anything remotely to do with Guthrie. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Yeah
Yeah but guthrie wrote:
I think guthrie seems to be more the kind of bloke to come up with the zappa quote " I liked the way it sounded".
That's certainly true to a degree, but, like I said earlier, he's also a thinking man. He knows theory inside out and can be very analytical when necessary - after all, he's a teacher who has to explain all the things he does or what someone else does. The cool thing is that he can totally block all that stuff out and just go with the gut feeling as well. The thing is: You still have to make it all sound good and that's no easy task. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
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Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:31 am Post subject:
Wickedpicker wrote:
Man this is a great thread. I agree whole heartedly with the pursuit of freedom as a measure of one's relevence to any pursuit. I however would add one element. That is a firm invocation of the themes that seem restrictive in ones music and the struggle for freedom against those constraints. Let me give an example: Pat Metheny's "Zero tolerence for silence". It was an unabashed blow stricken for freedom of expression but there was no musical context within the body of work to outline the constructs against which the musical energy was expended. Without the invocation of discipline, in an auditory way, the freedom of expression lacked any sense of relevence. I think genius is best demonstrated against the backdrop of convention so that the listener has some context of where things are and where the artist is wanting to go. In my very humble opinion that is what makes Guthrie and my other favorites more than just great players, but rather great musical minds. They show me what I know, i.e., the conventions that define my idea of what is possible, then they show me what musical freedom can bring within that context. My two cents.
Pat Metheny is one my favorite musicians of all time, but I agree - 'Zero Tolerance for Silence' I could not get. I read his interview about it and he was quite analytical about it all. It was, to him, a sonic (and neurotic) catharsis of sorts. To him, it was still "melody". Yup, that's how he described it. It was a way for him to organize noise into some more noise in a way that only he (and few others, I suppose) could really understand or extrapolate. I suppose it's an exploration of extreme dissonance because he's a real fan of that avant-garde free jazz stuff of Ornette Coleman and Eric Dolphy, etc. I did like 'Song X', but I decided to pass on his work with Derek Bailey.
I agree with you in that it's about being able to break the rules but one has to understand the rules first - inside and out. I'm going to mention Beethoven again as he was quite the rule-breaker in the Classical field. Indeed he was revolutionary in his time. Here's an excerpt from a bio by Harold C. Schonberg:
Harold C. Schonberg wrote:
It was this originality that set him apart. He was a force of nature, and nothing could contain him. He had a few lessons with prominent composers of the day, including Haydn and perhaps Mozart, but was dissatisfied with both of those great men and nothing much came of those lessons. It made no difference. Beethoven was not the kind of pupil who can be easily taught. He was too confident in his own genius. Once he made up his mind about something, he knew he was right.
He always looked with suspicion on "rules" of harmony, and one of his friends once pointed out a series of parallel fifths in his music. In Classical harmony, this is the unforgivable sin. Beethoven bridled. Who forbids parallel fifths, he wanted to know. A list of authorities was cited: Fux, Albrechtsberger, and so on. Beethoven dismissed them with a wave of his hand. "I admit them," he said. And there exists a notebook in which one harmony exercise is worked seventeen times to show that one of the "rules" was wrong. Disproving the rule to his own satisfaction, Beethoven added Du Esel - you ass - as a comment on the authority who had made the "rule."
Fun story. I love Beethoven. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:38 am Post subject:
frankus wrote:
The pursuit of freedom only has clear meaning in a less than permissive society. People seeking to be free in a totalitarian state have a far easier job, defining, and therefore, finding freedom, than people in a democracy. To me, freedom is a relative value, probably identified on Maslow's Hierarchy of needs as a yearning for the properties of the next highest strata.
I think freedom can mean a generic concept of being unaccountable to established and arbitrary concepts. So without a framework or with a subtle framework ( civilisation or free-form jazz), many may desire freedom but lack the perception to identify the areas they want to improve.
I believe that some people are born or raised outside convention and are by default unconventional. These people are ideally suited to find the path less travelled to get where they want to be, finding short circuits or free rides.. following intuition rather than received wisdom. By this chalk, some people who are challenging the system are not conscious and are unwitting iconoclasts
I think Guthrie isn't consciously challenging anything so his music is natural but his love of quirky stuff means his music is ever changing for his own amusement. He's at one with his inner-freak - like Phillip K Dick writing about a vastly different world and then enjoying making it fall apart.. it's our subjectivity that makes Guthrie a guru/iconoclast... and for that reason Guthrie won't write a tune like Derek Small's Jazz Odyssey unless it amuses him, which means that some part of it will be accessible to us, because he can tell a good story be it on a guitar, in a book or in conversation.
He seems to like sharing stuff, which means he's going to be mindful of his audience.
Anyway, that's my perception.. it might be flawed or wholly inaccurate and the insights into his character are definitely presumptuous. I'd liken him to Sherlock Holmes from the books .. NOT the films or tv shows.
Hey Frank, I think we're talking about the very tiny tip of the pyramid here. There needs to be one more category! That's interesting, but I was talking more about the freedom from one's own limitations - being an overachiever of sorts. You know, that struggle, that spirit. Once again, I'll bring up Beethoven. He considered committing suicide when he found out that he was going deaf in his 20's. I mean, that's quite understandable when you're a musical genius of the highest order and then you realize you won't be able to hear music or any sound again. But he overcame the deafness and went onto write the most sublime and profound music ever when he was stone deaf in his later years. That's heroic, epic... Anyway, that's the kind of "freedom" I was talking about. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
Beethoven heard the music through his teeth in later years though.. I think it was Edgard Varese who attempted this also as a means of composing. He bit into the piano so the notes resonated in his skull.
It's excellent to read some of those quotes, Ed. Do you find this reading matter a source of inspiration or is it mainly just compulsion to learn about these remarkable people? I wish I had your appetite for this stuff, my niche seems to be problem solving so it's people like Thomas Aquinas or Sherlock Holmes who flip my switch... _________________ Fabulous powers were revealed to me the day I held my magic Suhr(d) aloft and said "by the power of great scale!"
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 2783 Location: Chino, CA
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject:
frankus wrote:
Do you find this reading matter a source of inspiration or is it mainly just compulsion to learn about these remarkable people?
It's definitely both. I've read dozens of books about Wagner over the years. I've read over 30 books about Alexander and ancient Greece/Rome in the past year. I'm also reading up on Thomas Jefferson and Albert Einstein at the moment. I also love reading up on cosmology, theoretical physics, molecular biology and the whole theism vs. atheism debates, etc. I enjoy reading the science books by Richard Dawkins. He's always a great read. Stephen Hawkings' stuff is great too. I also read up on history in general and cultures of other parts of the world, especially Asia. I guess I just have an unquenchable thirst for knowledge about many subjects. They're all fascinating to me. _________________ Ed Yoon
Certified Guthrie Fan-atic
BOING Music LLC - Managing Partner
.strandberg* Guitars USA
Ed Yoon Consulting & Management
Guitar Center Inc.
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When you look at the names of the great historic figures I've mentioned, those types don't come around very often. The reason I mentioned those names is that they did what they did on their own terms, had the awesome talent, vision, boldness and the determination to pull it off, and essentially set new standards that everyone else strived for in their respective fields.
Hey, anything to keep him on the edge. 